Thought I'd start a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with CAs or church politics...'cause quite frankly, I don't feel like thinking about it right now .
So...what do you all think about the Duggar family in Arkansas, who just welcomed their SIXTEENTH child into the world? They say that they believe in accepting as many children as God has for them, and will continue to have kids as long as He keeps giving them to him.
To quote one of my precocious former 6th graders, "What do you mean 'God gave them a child?' Did He just float one through the window?" Or in this case, did He just float 16 of them through the window?
I guess that as long as they're financially able to take care of them, it's none of my concern, at least as a taxpayer...but it does beg the question, how much bonding can really take place between the parents and their children with that large of a number of kids? My brother and I are extremely close to our mom, but that's because she spent TONS of time with us when we were kids. I have memories of curling up on her lap with the "Little House on the Prairie" series of books - we read a Bible story and a chaper out of "Little House" together each night before we went to bed. I remember sitting around the house on Saturdays when she'd say, "Let's go downtown shopping, and then we can stop for hamburgers afterwards." Of organizing my brother, my friends, and his friends to put on little skits for our parents. Those Friday nights when we'd order a pizza and rent a movie and were allowed to eat and drink (gasp!) soda in the living room...
I know that one of the great mysteries of parenthood is that you are able to love each of your children, no matter how many you have. I have no doubt that these parents love each and every one of their 16 children. But I can't help but wonder: How many memories of quality time with their parents - and for that matter, grandparents and other extended family members - are the Duggar children going to have when they grow up?
I agree with you. I know many of these type of people claim that "the older children help with the younger," and all that, but I don't know about you - I wouldn't want my older sibling to be considered my parent unless some type of tragedy happened...which would not be good...
I totally agree with you on the "God gave us these kids" thing. Yes, children are a gift from the Lord, but we do have to cooperate. My husband and I dealt with a staff member once who kept having kids and used that as an excuse for not meeting expectations. "God gave us these kids..." they would say...as if they had nothing to do with it. There were times I wanted to give them a gift certificate to Walgreens and advise them to please pick up some birth control...
The real truth is, in the case I mentioned, they could not control themselves...even as married adults...if nothing was available and they wanted to have sex, they just did. Then they blamed the pregnancy on God. "God must have wanted us to have this child..." etc. Well, it's like this...if you are ovulating, and you do it - it's bound to happen!
I think people such as this couple you mention are perhaps not undisciplined as my dh and I have seen in the former case I mention, however I think they are probably mesmerized by the idea of pregnancy and childbirth and seeing how all these different kids turn out...but you are right...have they given thought to the quality of life? And are they prepared to adequately care for them? What about college? Is it fair to a kid to say, "we can do nothing for you because we have 15 others to help?"
You make valid points...I'm with ya. I know I have three kids and it's all I can do to keep up with them and quite frankly some days I don't. I thoroughly enjoyed pregnancy and the newborn stage. I mean, I love it. If all I had to do was get pregnant and have a bunch of newborns, I'd keep doing it, but the truth is, you have to raise these children. And as much as I enjoy babies, I truly cannot keep up with any more children. I know my limitations. It was pushing the envelope to have a third, let alone more than that. I think most parents are the same. Most people truly cannot keep up with more than three at the most four kids and provide them with the care needed and the quality of life.
Very interesting topic, Puppetmaster. We have 3 wonderful children. They are so awesome & add so much to our lives. Our middle son, 4 tomorrow, continually makes me laugh i.e. picture a toe-headed kid in his underoos, with a spiderman mask, a Bibleman cape, & a sword tucked inside his underoos. Life is never dull. Our oldest continually makes me think & ask myself questions. And the baby, 15 months now, brightens up any room w/ her smile.
With all the bragging out of the way, I suffer w/ severe motherhood guilt: not enough time to spend w/ each of them, not enough money, not enough space. I could not imagine one more in the mix, let alone 13 more.
Ok, back to bragging: I'm blessed. God has gifted me w/ 3 wonderful children. I receive blessings through each of them each day. He does not need to "gift" me with any more children in my home. In fact, I left the hospital this last time ensuring that no more "gifts" would be added, barring some unbelievable miracle.
We have a family in our church w/ 8 kids. Life @ church changed drastically once this family started coming. In fact, I had a talk w/ her Sunday about some of the kids behavior. And to double that? YIKES!
As far as the Duggar's go, I guess if they can afford it & the kids don't drive them crazy & they have enough room, who am I to say anything, except "Thank you Jesus I'm not Mrs. Duggar."
I agree with you, Trace on that, "thank you Jesus I'm not Mrs. Duggar." Hopefully they have all that you mention. My thought is...with most families I've heard about that have this many kids, they do not. There was a family we were associated with from one church that had 11 kids in the family they grew up in. The adult siblings often told us of the circumstances they lived in. Too many kids piled in one bedroom. Nobody had any privacy. Not enough dressers, closets, drawers, etc. And they scraped by for everything, even food. (this is with parents having decent jobs) The kids in this family now that they are grown will no longer eat soup because they had to eat it every single day as kids...watered down, stretched, to feed 13 mouths (11 kids, 2 adults). I don't know...it just doesn't seem like a fun way to grow up if you know what I mean. Not that we all have to be millionaires or anything. Puppetmaster I know you lived on a shoestring growing up because of the circumstances, but as you mention your Mom did the best she could and you have wonderful memories. But would it have been that way for you and your brother if your Mom added another dozen kids to the mix? Definitely not!
I do not know of any super large families like this who are not scraping by for every drop of soup in the pot. Perhaps there is a family out there somewhere that is super large and doesn't live that way but I have not met them. And I think...is it fair to the children to allow that to happen? I believe once you are pregnant, you're pregnant. Obviously I don't believe in abortion. But I do believe in making wise choices before you get pregnant, with adequate birth control. I think, when people are making the choice to have sex, they aren't exactly thinking about their finances, but maybe they should!
And as far as ministry goes...one thing that does bother me a super lot are people who have kids and then expect YOU to accomodate the choices they have made. In other words...you hire a pastor/staff member, or even any employee - adminstrative, whatever...perhaps they don't have any kids or just one or two when you hire them. Then they have more and they think YOU should change the expectations of the job because THEY have decided to procreate. Ughhh!!!!! That drives me to the nut house. I'm telling you, I can't handle it. I'm getting mad just sitting here typing this. I guess it hits a sore point because we have dealt with it and it is not fun. For instance, a staff member saying, "well, I really can't fulfill these expectations of my job description anymore, I've got all these kids running around." Well, my answer to that is: RESIGN. GET OUT OF THE MINISTRY. I know it sounds tough, but I believe, you may get an exemption on your taxes because you have kids, but you don't get exemptions from expectations or having a job just because you decided to have kids. My husband would confront this and hear, "God gave us these kids." His answer: "So, let me get this straight...this was a virgin birth...you did not sleep with your wife in order to have these children??" I know that sounds so basic, but I really think some people think they carry no responsibility in it. It's incredulous to me. I better get off of this subject, I might get in the danger zone here - I feel my blood pressure rising.
Love you all...pray for me today...I have an earache. But I've got to keep marching (or soaring as I like to say) on...I have a meeting tonight here at my home and I've been working on cooking and getting my thoughts together to teach, but my head is throbbing. Still, the show must go on...........
I keep hearing people say, "Oh, when you have kids, your life is going to change SO much...you won't have time to run around and do all the ministry, etc. that you do now."
I told DH, "If I ever turn into one of those people who gives up my calling, my dreams, my life ambition, etc. and completely wraps myself up in my kids - just take me out back and shoot me!"
I know that my life is going to change when I have kids. But I believe that it is possible to fit children into the life I currently lead - once I am able to ditch the superfluous FT day job, that is .
But you are so right, Deanna - a person in the ministry who can't handle their same job description once they have kids should, at the very least, take a break and work on juggling and prioritizing, because their slacking off is not fair to the people to they are called to minister to...
Without getting too much into the pro-life arena here, let us all remember that God opens and closes the womb. We ought not take this control away from him. I have girlfriends with nine kids each, all homeschooled, all well adjusted, many of them married adults now. This is because these ladies were obedient to God and invested alot of time in these kids.
Now, having said all of that, these ladies also were able, because they had WONDERFUL husbands who served them in return, to have ministries of thier own. Hospitality, homeschooling support, breastfeeding classes, free babysitting, etc. . They did not have to give up their calling to the ministry, they just had to be very organized and dedicated.
It's no secret here that I am anti- birth control, but we ought never judge what should be for other Christian couples who are close to God. I think, though it's not a good idea for married people to use birth control, we can't ever judge what another's calling might be. Love you all! LW
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
I am definitely NOT trying to start a debate - I'll just say that right off the bat!
I am just wondering which Scriptures "anti-birth control" people use to support their position.
The reason I ask is genuine curiosity. I was slammed on another message board for even asking that question - was called a liberal with no values, etc. So I'm hoping that I can get a reasonable, rational response from someone with that point of view...
How can people who claim Christ call names like that and get so over heated? Sorry that happened to ya'.
Just checking the board real quick, but I can get back to you on the references when I have another moment or two. I do know that anytime we try to take things into our own hands, things are bound to go wrong. It's certainly been true in my life!
Had I not been in such a rush to get a husband and children before I was 19, I could have been with the man God intended for me all along. Mark. But I had to have everything when I wanted it, and did not want to wait for God to give it to me when I was ready. Love, Lw
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
I do agree about the not judging part, but on the "taking matters into our own hands" I would politely disagree. I see birth control as wonderful medical advances. God has given doctors and scientists wisdom. Someone would not be accused of taking matters into their own hands if they had heart surgery, or took medication of various kinds. Or, even if they took something to prevent something from happening. I take vitamins each day which are a positive thing. This is a good thing, uncovered by medical science. I do not agree with abortion, obviously. It is NOT a form of birth control. (it's murder) But I do not believe it's murder to prevent a conception from happening in the first place. It is simply a choice that people make as they feel led by God.
I believe some things, God expects us to act on. He does give us some choices in life, and while we are following His voice and He is to be in control, He does expect us to follow His leading and do or not do certain things.
I believe we are all called to follow God's voice on these matters. If God has spoken to somebody to have 16 kids, or however many - so be it. But I also believe if he has spoken to them, the fruit of that will show in that they will have time to spend with each one, and the money to not only provide for them during their growing up years, but college as well. It seems like the people that you know, LW, all fit into that category, so that is great.
As always, you've made some interesting points. Think of women like my sister Pattie. Single, and I believe called to be so. If not, God would not have created her the way he did. ( somewhat mentally challenged) She serves God well in many ways, mostly with her volunteer work. She is a bright light in the lives of many, and yet, childless and quite single....and frankly, happy to be so.
You may want to be aware, however, that the birth control hormones with which I am familiar, do not prevent fertilization. They create a hostile environment in the uterus not allowing the baby to implant there. Thus causing the baby to be shed. I was unaware of this until I was told several years back so I do like to make other women aware when the subject comes up. I don't judge at all what any woman does with this information, but I think it's important to have so you can make informed choices as a couple. That way you know exactly what you would like to use or not use. That's really why I share it when I can.
As usual, thanks for giving us all so much to think about. Love ya'! LW
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
Thanks for clarifying that, LW. I probably should have clarified as well, when I say "birth control" I am not just referring to the pill, but to ALL methods such as condoms, diaphragms, etc. I agree some birth control pills were found to be as you say -- the real low dosage ones, and I always advise ladies to ask their doctor (if they are interested in going on the pill) to make sure they are getting the ones that are truly acceptable birth control (completely preventing pregnancy, not shedding one that is already in existence.) I agree with you completely that causing the baby to be shed once it is there is completely wrong. What I do agree with is, using acceptable methods to prevent it ever forming in the first place, if you do not feel the Lord leading you to have any more children. For instance, dh and I are now both permanently "fixed"...and I don't feel that we're out of God's will to be so - we just know...the quiver is full, if you know what I mean. Three is our number. (Of course, we have a fourth in heaven waiting on us.)
That was the first question I asked my doctor when I went on "the pill" before I got married...I made definite sure that it was a non-abortifacient. Medical science has made great strides since the 1970's/early 1980's, when a lot of BC pills had the potential to harm an already-formed child, and there are plenty of brands out there that just plain block ovulation. If it happens to not work and you ovulate and conceive, then you're just pregnant. No harm done to the baby.
Of course, even the brand I used (relatively low dosage!) really messed me up physically and emotionally. We're talking major mood swings, migraines, upset stomach. DH finally asked me to stop taking it and we've used other forms for the past three years. Obviously, it's worked, because I have no children! But we also take the approach that if we do conceive in spite of our precautions, we'll be thankful for and love the child that results - abortion would never even cross our minds...
Absolutely, I would thank God and love a child that would result if the BC did not work -- but it would not stop me from using the BC (the proper kind) in the first place.
I was on the pill (the right kind) for a while too and I didn't like the side affects. So, we started using other things. I have used almost everything that was out at the time years ago, before dh got fixed. We never had a pregnancy that we did not plan, but if we would have we would have considered it God's way of telling us he had something very special in store!
I don't use the pill because it messes up my hormones, no mater the brand the dosage or what. But I do use the family planning method, rhythm method, whatever you want to call it.
I know God command adam and eve to be fruitful and multiply.. and the whole quiver full thing .... but I don't think that God expects you to just keep having babies either. I've heard about the pill being an abortiant ... if that's true then use other forms of birth control... like the one I use which is just knowing the rythms of my cycle and avoiding hubby for a few days.
In deciding on family and kids etc... I think it's a conviction of the heart. And it's using wisdom. If you're not able to support yourself let alone anyone else and you just keep having kids in a poor house, I would be convicted of that being a lack of wisdom. People like the Duggars, even though I think they are crazy for having that many kids myself rofl, do use wisdom. They are able to fully provide for all of their children. I seen a thingy on them, and they love each of their children. I don't know how they give one on one attention *shrugs* but I'm sure they make an effort with each and every one of them. I know for myself.. when we had a church of just 16 members I was able to get to know each member personally because it's not a large group of people. So I would consider that the Duggar family is the same. Each child may not get as much time as a family of three children may, but that wouldn't mean they don't have an opportunity to know each one individually either.
The thing that would concern me about having so many children is on this documentary or whatever it was, they spoke of her uterus growing tired. Her last baby was a c-section because of her body being tired. So my concern would be the wisdom issue again.... if your body is giving out wouldn't it be prudent and wise to use natural birth control then? Surly it would be better for mom to still be around for the 16, then to try for that 17.
But then again my convictions are not hers. I could debate on both sides of this one hehehehe... but lets just say three is enough for me
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God is my strength and my refuge, in Him will I put my trust.
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Sorry that happened to ya'.
