I have a question...just an opinion poll really. Havent done it but wondered what you guys think about it. It can be quite controversial. If you were with your husband on a vacation, just you two, on an island or somewhere amazing like that, would you buy a drink with your food? Do any of you or have any of you ever ordered wine with a meal? We have bought nonalcoholic wine at a liquor store but dh cringed everytime because everyone knew him where we were from so he just was afraid he could cause someone to stumble. But the thing about it was nonalcoholic wine...I dont buy (talking about in the Bible) because Paul told the bishops not to drink it and their wives not to be drunk with much wine. And one reason I refrain is I think I would rely on it too much when stressed but technically do you think it's right or wrong? Yesturday was our ten year anniversary and my 28th birthday and I felt the desire to have a drink to celebrate though I didnt tell dh. He would worry about me and quite honestly I am worrying too. Am I being tempted to do something wrong? (I did use to drink periodically before marriage dh never did) so I know what it feels like. And to be honest I probably would enjoy relaxing with a drink of wine. Am I slipping? (I have never voiced this to anyone but dh so this is big for me). we have been so stressed in the past 2 years that we both have battled depression and thoughts of coping thru medication (for dh) and both medication and drinks (for myself). Have done neither but just wondered if we are the only ones to ever hear such stuff in our heads and really listen to it?! Do you think wine is wrong?
For me, there is not a simple answer to this. Do I think drinking wine is wrong? No. I don't. Getting drunk? No question - yes.
Is it wrong for ME to drink wine? Yes. I've never had any alcoholic drink - at least on purpose. (I think I went to a wedding once where the punch was spiked - but I do not really count this & I stopped drinking it.) Anyway, the only reason that I would have to drink wine or anything would probably have a rebellious attitude behind it. Just to prove that I could - if that makes sense. So, I think my motivation would be wrong, making it wrong for me to drink. Plus, I don't think the A/G would really embrace the idea.
I'm not sure what I think about drinking a glass to relax. I know for me, I couldn't do it. I think that is one of those things that is between you & God.
If I remember correctly, alcohol is actually a depressant. So, I definitely would not treat depression w/ alcohol. What can help? Of course, talking to someone & getting counsel. If it is a chemical depression, I have no problem w/ medications. Getting more active & exercise is also great for depression.
I do not believe drinking is wrong per se, as far as a glass of wine with a nice meal, HOWEVER - I don't do it. Reason: in America it has a much different connotation than other countries like Italy or Spain where it is not a controversial issue,due to the fact that it's not done as a drug as it is here in America, but purely a "food/drink" thing with a nice meal. People over there think Americans are crazy for the way we treat the issue of alcohol. Over there it is not used as a stimulant but as a top off to an elegant meal. Here, it is very controversial because it has wrecked many people, homes and families. For this reason, I abstain. It represents something very controversial in our culture. People here would seriously question a minister who is drinking. Also, my denomination thoroughly disapproves of it, and this is another reason I willingly submit to the lifestyle of completely abstaining.
IF it didn't have a negative connotation in the USA, and IF it wasn't responsible for the wreckage of lives in the USA as it is, and IF my denom. didn't disapprove of it -- then YES, I would have a drink on special occasions with dh as a part of our meal together. HOWEVER, I would still believe that drinking to handle stress would be completely wrong. That is not appropriate.
As far as my church, it's a rather difficult issue as we have over 20 nations represented in our congregation and in many of those homes represented they are coming from countries where there is no stigma to drinking and it is acceptable for even children to have a glass of wine at Christmas, Easter, birthdays, etc. We do not speak to the issue very much in our church because quite frankly we do have so many of these types of people represented and we try to not make it a major issue or be on a soapbox about it, though we do state, of course that alcoholism is a bondage and needs to be broken, and that we should not be addicted, we really don't tackle the "social drinking" issue too much. In fact, we have some prominent members of our church that we are close to. Larry and I know that they socially drink on special occasions. They have never told us this, but with their cultural background (and seeing some things in their house they might not have realized I saw - wine bottles in the fridge, etc.) I know they do. We have never been invited to their special occasion family gatherings, which we believe this is why. They know we don't drink, even a glass of wine. However we are very close to them and do a lot of other things with them. They invite us over a lot and include us in things. I used to think it odd that with as close as we are we have never been invited to various functions where family members of theirs are being honored, etc. Then I figured out...they are serving wine. And, they don't want us to be offended. I have never brought it up to them, though. To me it is a non-issue. They are not alcoholics nor do they get drunk...this is purely what they do as a part of their culture for special family occasions. If we brought it up they would probably think Larry and I were from outer space. When you minister in a multi-cultural area and you are dealing with people from these other countries where drinking is not an issue, they can't comprehend that some people abuse alcohol.
I agree with what Trace said, about being active and exercising. I feel 100% different when I work out. Sometimes I can be so down about something and when I finish a work out, i'm a different woman. Also, I believe if you are seriously struggling with depression, go to your doctor and talk to them about the possibility of medication. You may need it. Taking prescription medication in the proper amount, and dosage is a welcome relief for many. And there is nothing wrong with this, if you are truly requiring it.
We will be praying for you. Don't ever be afraid to bring something like this up. WE ALL GO THROUGH HARD TIMES. AND WE ALL HAVE THESE THOUGHTS! I have never really craved alcohol (never liked the taste of it myself, I don't even like it in recipes if I can taste it!) HOWEVER...I have been so depressed in ministry years ago, I prayed for a bus to hit me. I fantasized about suicide at one point, I was so beside myself about the hurts I was facing. Thank God a Christian counselor helped me get my head on straight. I don't have to let other people drive me to this point. One man died for the church...I don't have to.
I agree with all of that. That is why I havent done it. I mean if it is something you have to wrestle with you probably shouldnt do it. I DO like a few drinks ( wine really isnt one of them, its just the example I used) I would personally only be tempted to get a daquari if I were on a cruise or something. I like those but other drinks I dont. Hated hard liquor. Hated beer. Took me a sample of different things to realize there were very few things I liked then I got back rededicated in church and thought no more of it. Except in the past little bit becuase I have been going thru such hurts. Dh prayed for me last night and I feel better and know that it is the enemy to make me feel hopeless. I dont know if I would call it depression from a chemical stand point. I think its been hopelessness from hurts working in the church. We had another one the other day. Up here in a financial bind, thinking another check (husband was promised 2 or 3 more payroll checks plus whatever had come in the offering for us during our send off service) and we called pastor there to see if it was in the mail. I mean we are so tight right now that we split a $5 entree at the mexican joint last night for our 10 year anniversary! (Splurged on a $3 sopapilla though!) ANd when dh called to see when it was coming (payroll check or something!) he was met with a cold response and told there was no more money. And we were told we would have a few more checks spacedout over the next few months.. Here we are needing to buy school clothes and supplies, 12 people in our congregation and our rent is assured and salary is covering the basics but theres nothing for all this other stuff like school shoes and haircuts, ect... So I got mad and hurt. Dh was hurt and near tears and that tore me up. So I felt like hopeless. Like there is noone you can trust. Here is the deal, this will help you understand a little more.They are in a debt reducing program right now trying to pay off the $300,000 they still owe on a 4 million dollar facility. It is getting so bad they (pastor and board) are forbidding teens from raising money for their youth conference this fall ( normally a project the church funded entirely) they are forbidding them from raising it within the church! Its not the communities place to fund a church project liek that! They are pressuring (and losing families I might add) families and we honestly think they took our offering money and didnt do us right. Out of the 500 people that came thru, shook our hands and cried over us leaving its hard to imagine that we only got a $700 offering. We know the budget! So we are hurting over that. I am hurting over KNOWING my dh was kicking himself for not making my birthday "better" (his words) I could have cried and I expressed to him how much I love himand enjoyed our time together last night. But I know his pride is hurting. He sisnt have the money for the girls to go birthday shopping fo rme like he usually does. But we have a nicer home and the basics are covered. (The cable may have to go and we are cutting out my cell phone) Dh has applied with the county to be a substitute teacher so he can still be flexible. But if it doesnt get better, he will go back to work full time and I hate to see him do it if it will tie him down (and 99% of jobs do) I hate feeling like all I do is complain. I promise, we have good days but its been a rough 18- 24 months and I at times question do I need to be leading others when I am fighting all this hurt and discouragement and dh said last night, we are still standing. By the grace of God we are still standing. And still in the ministry. So that should accout for something.
Back to source of this discussion. I too know any reason I would socially drink for would be to be to escape the pressures I just described and then I would just be robbing God of the opportunity to be my joy, by comforter and provider and THAT would be wrong. Its good to know that others get that discouraged too. I thought I was the only one that thought death would be better than facing the hard times. You dont hear too many leaders with the courage to admit to having those kinds of thoughts. I appreciate your honesty Deanna.
We too ahve friend back at our former church that socially drink (though they are red white and blue born and bred americans) so its notaddressed there becuase these people are big givers and dh was told in not so many words it wasnt a big deal and he knew not to go there but it always bothered him. We were just not taught that way. Another reason my conscious wont let me. Who wants to deal with MORE condemnation. Like there isnt enough of it already!
Cassandra: It is SOOOO hard being in the place you are right now. We're there too. I haven't had a haircut for about 4 months now. I'm telling people I'm "growing my hair out" but truth is, I just can't afford it. My parents took my sons out for their latest haircut. Our oldest needs another one. We sacrificed for dh to get one. Our oldest sons shoes are horrible. I'm thankful that my brother-in-law took him out last week & bought him a new pair of shoes & a couple of outfits for school. Our baby, like her brothers, has extremely big feet. You can't go to Walmart or other "cheaper" places to get shoes for her. We can't find any to fit her. She needs 2 pair of shoes, one for her day-to-day clothes & a dressy pair for her dresses. We're going to have to go to a specialty shoe store & pay big bucks that we just don't have. What are we doing now? She goes barefoot everywhere we go. (She immediately takes her socks off) Am I embarassed? Oh yes. I feel like a horrible mother, but what else can we do? I keep holding on to the fact that I know "God will supply our needs according to HIS riches in glory" & that "I've never seen the righteous forsaken or their seeds out begging for bread." Even when we do not see it, God is still working. I keep hoping that changes will come at the next meeting on Tuesday, but even if they don't, God's still with me & will supply our needs.
Any pride that I might have had has long gone. When we moved up here, we were so poor, we were on food stamps. Boy did we eat good during that time. Truth be known, we could probably qualify now. It has been so humbling to accept help from others. We are not in a rich area. We have been called to one of the poorest parts of our county. But people still have pride. I think God has allowed us to be in this situation so that we can better empathize with those in our community.
But I must say, I really do need a haircut.
As to the original topic, at our previous church, we had made friends w/ non-Christians, not in our church. We would be invited to birthday parties for them. They had a Hindu background & were of Indian descent. They drank at the parties. We were comfortable being there. Though they were not Chrisian, dh was considered to be their pastor. We had another couple who were also non-Christians & we were invited into their home for parties where some would drink. Our kids were w/ us. Our oldest would go up to them & tell them that they shouldn't drink. They learned to put their beer in a glass instead of leaving in the can. They totally respected us, our kids, & our beliefs. We in turn respected them & did not preach at them. When in trouble, you know who they called. We, too, were their pastor.
My heart genuinely breaks to hear you both describe your situation. I have been exactly where you are in times past. Thankfully our church now is so good to us. But for 15 years of ministry, that's exactly what we dealt with, so it's not far from my memory at all.
I truly understand what you are saying and I am praying fervently for you both. I can't even describe to you how it absolutely sickens me that churches do this.
Cassandra, in regards to your former church...they have NO IDEA what they just did to themselves. If they did not give you the full amount, they have done something terrible to themselves in the spirit realm. God takes things like this very seriously. The consequences that they will have to pay will be steep for doing this to God's anointed. Prepare yourself to hear about many hard times that will come upon that congregation. It is unfortunate that God's people have no idea what they are bringing upon themselves when they do this to a pastor.
Let me tell you - years ago, some board members short-changed my husband and I very deeply when it came to a few financial things. Within a year, terrible things happened within those individual board member's finances. One couple had a business deal go completely awry and totally wrecked their finances at that time, and another completely lost all of their investments. We just sat back and watched it all, thinking, "vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." We don't have to do anything when we are treated like this, God takes care of it.
My prayers are with you both and please don't hesitate to vent here. You have people who truly feel your pain and are here anytime, day or night.
