How many times would you say a staff member would be able to make the same mistake repeatedly (and be corrected) before you would give the now famous Trump words...
I would say that it depends on the magnitude of the mistake of the mistake. Knowing you Deanna, it probably is not something minor, so I will assume we are talking about something serious. I would say that if you have told them several times (3-4 or more) and then given the a written warning that this action could lead to further disciplinary action up to and including termination, then you could safely fire that staff member.
I say this for 2 reasons. First, I work in HR, and we are big fans of having things in writing. Second, I used to work for a Pastor who was very indirect. He would sware that he had told someone that something was a problem, yet they would not have a clue until he totally went off about it. This happened to every staff member, including me, at least once. Some staff members and armorbears got this treatment repeatedly. Anyway, my point is that I know that you are very direct Deanna, but some people are not. I would think that the mistake as you stated would have to be clearly corrected, so that the person is aware of the problem and the severity of it.
I am not sure what the laws are in FL, but in SC you can fire someone just because. You do not have to give a reason, but many states are not like that. I think that the documentation protects you and also gives them an opportunity to correct themselves if their heart is right.
That is my . I am interested in hearing what others think.
I agree with LadyT...document, document, document!! I used to work in the staffing industry, and we had some very angry temps calling the Better Business Bureau, lawyers, etc. on us for firing them, but we were able to show them the documentation of incidents like not showing up for an assignment, consistent inappropriate dress issues, or (true story!) showing up drunk after hours and trashing the entire office that they were assigned to. Even we, as assistants, were required to document any "bad" phone conversations that we had.
MN law also has "employment at will," meaning that either party can terminate the working relationship at any time. So if it's the same in FL, it's pretty much whenever you, as the employer, decide that it's just not working.
Just make sure that you document everything, because even though you can fire them, they can still try to file a lawsuit against you!
Okay, clarify for me...when you say document, document, document...
Do you mean, make sure you have written documentation that you have kept in your files in your office, "just in case" - a record of everything just for you personally and in case you would need it in the future. Or...do you mean, every time something occurs, document it and give it to the person? In the past here, there was a staff member who oversaw other staff members and would do that (give a "disciplinary memo" each time there was an infraction) but that seemed to really inflame things.
I have always made it a practice to talk to people directly, and to sometimes personally document or keep a file. But, I have never gone into their office and said, "here is everything I just told you in writing" or written them a memo and put it in their box or something that says, "Disciplinary Action" or something like that.
Having legal issues or such is really not my concern although I realize the importance of it as you mention. It is something that we must be careful with. What I am asking is more along the lines of...
What do you think is "fair"? For instance, let me just think of a hypothetical case and maybe you will see what I mean...I want to make it something we are not dealing with so as to protect the privacy of those involved, myself included.
Let's say you tell a singles pastor, "please make sure to return the church van to the church parking lot after each use. Do not leave it at your home overnight because chances are another ministry will need it in the morning." But the same singles pastor does that repeatedly. You tell them directly, but there it goes happening again. So, at 7 am, you have the youth pastor at the church with a bunch of youth he is taking to an amusement park the next day. He calls and says, "Pastor, where's the van?" Meanwhile it's at the singles pastor's home for the 4th time. You have told him each time. He has not listened. Each time there seems to be a "reason." The first time he forgot you told him not to. The second time his wife was sick...they had to go right home instead of to the church. The third time, it was too late to fill it up for gas. Now you are at the fourth time and you, the pastor are being awakened at the crack of dawn with this mistake AGAIN.
Do you fire this guy over having the van at his house 4 times when you told him not to? Or is that a stupid reason to fire someone? It is small yet they are repeatedly going against what you have told them to do. Yet some would see that as minor.
BTW, the scenario above has nothing to do with anything at our church, I have completely made it up just to give a situation that you might be able to see where I am coming from.
These are the types of issues I'm talking about...you clearly can "document" that and even give a memo, but still..............are reasons like this valid for terminating someone?
Obviously in moral cases or outward insubordination with an attitude, but what about just repeated "mistakes" like this that a person does not correct? But the things drive you absolutely insane and you do not want to have to keep putting up with those type of mistakes, uncorrected.
My dh always says, "I have no problem whatsoever with my staff making mistakes. Mistakes help you to grow, mature and become better. I only ask that my staff be fully willing to CORRECT the mistake once I bring it to their attention and make sure it doesn't happen again."
So.........what to do when something is not corrected??? How quickly do you "Trump" them?
Thanks for your insight ladies, always a pleasure talking to you...
In the short time I worked as a charge nurse, I learned to document everything! Each time I counseled, for a good deed, or error, I documented it, and sent it to my supervisor so they were aware. In my case, I had very few times where I was counseling a CNA for an error, or once, insubordination. I was careful not to do this in front of people, and to be very clear that the errors were not be repeated. I had NO authority to "trump" a girl, but i did have a say at evaluation time. You need to be careful in a church setting. You need to be certain that the infraction is not just driving you nuts, but has adversley affected the running of the church. You do not want to get a rep for being a hatchet lady. Now, i know you, I know you are not like that, i am saying you can very easily get a rep for being that. You may want to confront this person, and have a discp. memo, have them sign and date it. Then, if they do it again, "Trump-ing" them would be a logical next step, and you are protected by law, i think, and certainly, if your district had anything to say. The memo can also say that this is the 4th time this employee has committed this error, and has been counseled orally. I can't advise "yes" or "no" on what I would do, since I do not know the nature of the infraction. So just be careful, document, check with an authority in your district you can trust before you decide. I am a UBIC, not AG, our goverments are somewhat different. It sounds to me as if you are very frustrated with this person, and if it is interfering in ANY way with serving your congregation, then YOU MUST ACT! What action you take will need to be prayerfully considered. I KNOW you will do the right thing, whatever it is. Good Luck! Lw
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
Just as LadyT said, really you can fire anyone, "just because" as far as the law...that is not really the issue...and the district has nothing to do with it, really.
My question really just centers around, "what is fair"on a leadership level. What is the right thing to do? Would you fire someone for just repeated irritations that you have clearly told them not to do, or would it have to be something colossal. I am not speaking of things like leaving a dirty coffee cup on the desk or something like that. I'm talking about things that do affect the everyday run of the church. Things that are policy/procedure oriented.
Example - what I said about the church van, or something like personal phone calls, or the like. It's not a "moral" failure or a massive rebellion..........none the less, as the boss you should not have to put up with it. Know what I mean?
I think i know what you mean. Fair is also kind of relative. If it is something that is more than annoying, and affects the running of the church, you may have no other choice. Fair or not. Is the person truely repentant, or simply being careless and lazy due to your obvious good nature? You have to consider these factors, at least I would. Good Luck! Lw
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
when someone makes the same mistake over and over again it is time to look at firing them. Especially when they have been asked numerous times to correct that mistake. I think you would have to look at the issues that surround it. For example , the scenario of the singles pastor. He has been asked repeatedly to return the bus and does what he wants. He has shown disregard for the senior pastor 's authority, he has shown disregard for the other ministries in the church, and he has not been a team player. When someone's actions are affecting the comraderie of the staff,they are allowing satan a foothold in the church and in the staff's relationship. When is it fair to fire? when the relationship of the staff is affected and there is no change in the offending person's attitude or actions. ( personally I have a 4 limit rule/ when I have asked you 4 times and someone isn't listening after repeated correction then it's time for them to be dealt with because 3 times is patient, 4 times I've lost mine.) May God give you clear directon in what to do. RJ
That does make perfect sense to me, about the "4 times" rule. Unless it is out and out rebellion, (which would actually be "fire-able" ??? on the first offense, definitely on the second) I think for matters like I described about, four times is very appropriate, because it would be like a "three time" warning (sort of like three strikes and you're out) only with going four times, it would actually the extra mile because you are giving them a fourth chance. If someone is not listening by the 4th time.............will they ever?
I believe this is a very good rule of thumb and thanks for sharing it. There's wisdom in that. You know, I've learned about "correctly immediately" and not letting things slide. I have learned sooooooooooo much about this (more than I ever wanted to!), but one thing I have not encountered a lot is actual termination of staff. Bringing to attention the need for change is a given for all of us to have to do, but having something come to a more serious decision is much, much different. There just needs to be so much wisdom/thought behind it.
. I am interested in hearing what others think. 
