Okay girls, it's like this. We have a family in our church that knows how to work the system for lack of a better phrase. It is very frustrating. We have the most giving, loving church in the world, and I'm not kidding you or exaggerating. Our people are really awesome. The problem with this is that when there are those who abuse or "work the system" it can be very taxing on truly good, giving, loving, Godly people. Our church is such an atmosphere of giving, reaching out, loving, etc. and what a wonderful thing to have. But here's the deal...
There's a family in our church - they are members - there every time the doors are open. They buy what they want to buy in their personal life (whatever extras they want) but then whenever anything comes up at church they say they don't have the money and they literally beg people. And...people feel used and abused (though they don't say anything, you can tell they are sometimes disheartened but can't say "no.") When there is any church event with a price tag, they go to someone and say, "Can you pay for us to go to ______________? We really don't have the money." When they come to my dh and I and ask if "the church" can pay for them, we stand firm and say no. But sometimes (well lots of other times!) others give them the money.
Case in point, Sunday night after church we announced that anybody who wanted to go to Perkins should come over...and we'd get the private room. About 50 people ended up coming over. This family was included. Once they got there, they went around and asked people to pay for them. And...people did. One of the people in leadership who I am closer to came over and mentioned to me, "That really bothers me when they do that." Well, it bothers me too, but what do you think should be done about it? Larry and I stand firm when they come and inquire about church funds, but do you think a pastor should interfere when people are "peddling" other people for money so to speak? I mean if you overheard a conversation, would you enter in on it? At this point I just try to keep new people away from these people...I would be horrified if they asked them for money, and trust me they have the nerve to.
I think the thing that frustrates people is that they do whatever else they want to do outside of church. You pull up to their house and there is a satellite dish outside, yet they don't have money to go to Perkins. It's not a matter of them really being "in need". When I announce a women's outing in the church, the woman in question goes up to ladies (privately) and says, "I really want to attend, but how much do you think it will cost? Oh gee...I don't know if I have that much...do you think I should come?" When she has asked me, I just say, "No, if you don't have the money this time." But others just pull out their wallets. You know the hard thing for me is..........I'm generous by nature and am always paying for people truly in need to do stuff, or even just friends of mine. I love, absolutely LOVE giving. It's one of my gifts. But I don't like to be abused, and I won't be abused. The Bible says not to give reluctantly or under compulsion. I think that's what bothers me about this situation...people aren't giving out of kindness, they are giving because of pressure or whatever. I'm just getting sick of it happening in my church. Our people are way too kind, way too generous, giving to be taken for a ride like this. I know God will bless them...part of me says, "don't ever discourage giving...we need to give, give, give til we can't give anymore." In general, I believe that. I believe in extravagant giving. But something about this bothers me............I see these people coming and just want to hide.
What would you do? Either give me an answer or slap me.
Wow!! that's a tough situation. I think, if you are getting negative feedback from others in your congregation, that you could address it in a private meeting. These people need to know that others are not comfortable with being approached and feeling obligated to give or manipulated. Although, you already have a heads up about where they are at financially because of their frivolous spending, maybe in your meeting you could ask them if they are struggling financially and what can they do to cut back so that they would not have to keep asking for hand-outs. They are actually distroying their own blessings by being this way. The bible says it is more blessed to give than to receive. Maybe there are some underlying insecurities in this family because most everyone feels great when they are the blessor rather than being the blessed. We have someone like that in our congregation, and our members are extremely giving as well. But most everyone is aware of this girl's tactics and do not give to her when she comes begging. So we haven't had to take her aside.
Unfortunately, there are those who call themselves Christians, however they do not act like Christ. He was the ultimate giver, so how can we say we are Christians when we don't give. -and most times the ones doing the receiving aren't doing any giving because if they were, they wouldn't always be taking.
Praying for you. Please let me know how this situation goes, because we may have to deal with this sometime.
I appreciate what you've said and I understand where you're coming from. I think it's going to take a private meeting, and I have told dh that. But I don't know if we will ever break through. I'm not trying to be doom & gloom...but this is a tough case to crack.
This family, is slightly mentally disabled. They are not so disabled that they cannot work, drive, function, etc. However, they are nevertheless disabled. But they are smart enough to work the system, and they know EXACTLY how to do it. They have jobs, but they are also on welfare, and they squander the whole check on absolutely stupid stuff and then come to the church and say, "We can't make our car payment..." The tough thing is, our church people have tried to help them. We have financial management classes...people have also taken them aside and talked to them, and tried to help them "get it together." The fact is, they just don't want to.
Let me give you a for instance of how bad this has gotten. They know that dh and I won't let them work the system anymore when it comes to church functions and stuff. When they have tried to sign up for banquets but say, "we can't pay" we just say, "oh, we're sorry you won't be able to attend this time." Okay, so then what happens -- they SHOW UP AT THE DOOR ANYWAY, and they are not on the attendance list, nor are they paid. Then they expect to be seated, and they expect to eat. One of our ministries had a banquet a few months ago, it was an upscale sort of thing, and they told everyone "by reservation only". This family did not sign up because they know they would be told to pay. Although dh and I were not part of this particular function, he immediately got a call about it. This family showed up and gave a sad song and dance about how they "didn't know they had to pay." (That was sooooooo not true, I mean hello, it's in the bulletin every week and all that other stuff) well anyway, the ministry leader hosting the event was so mad about it but they felt they could not turn them away. They had ordered almost the "exact" amount of food needed from the caterer. There was really nothing to spare. But...they pared down the other people's (people who pre-registered & paid) food to make extra plates for this family. The ministry leader explained to the family how this put her in a tough position and she had to pare down the food on the other plates. She asked them to please not do it again in the future. Well, I think they were oblivious to this because after this little talk from the ministry leader, later in the evening she said they headed over to the dessert table (which was simply an array of desserts on a table, for everyone to choose one.) The husband in this family went over and promptly took 3 desserts for him to eat -- alone! Then proclaimed to everybody at his table, "Wow, I've eaten so much, I don't know how I'm going to walk out of here." As you can imagine, the ministry leader was about to pop she was so upset!!! She called dh after the event and said, "What do I do about this? I was so mad but I didn't feel I could turn them away especially with everybody watching. What would people think?"
That's part of the issue. I think they KNOW it looks bad for our leaders to turn them away in front of people. So that's why they just "show up." We have a newcomer luncheon every 3 months. It's only for our staff , board & newcomers. (It's after the am service) This family showed up twice. I asked them to leave both times. The second time, I had to literally "get in their face" and say, "I TOLD YOU THIS EVENT IS NOT FOR YOU. IT IS FOR OUR NEWCOMERS." After practically banging this through their heads, they gave me a mean look and left. Afterwards my dh was very mad at what they did, but he said, "honey, you can't do this. It looks bad for the pastor's wife to get in people's face like that and tell them to leave a banquet!" (I agree!!! But I didn't think there was another alternative. One of our hospitality ladies had already told them to leave and they did not listen to her.) Now we have a board member stand at the door "just in case" and they will be the one to get in their face if need be.
The thing is, we are an incredibly giving church -- we feed 100 homeless & disadvantaged families every weekend. We have a clothing bank. We have a class to help people learn how to financially get on their feet and do things the right way. Aside from that we just have extravagant givers in our church who just love the daylights out of people, myself included. One of my gifts is giving...I'm always doing something for somebody and nothing delights me more. My goal in life is to "excel in the grace of giving" as the scripture says. But I don't think God is calling us to be abused.
I think we are going to have a private meeting with this family...you are right, and perhaps even include other staff or board members. It just can't go on because when I see them approach a visitor, let me tell you, I'm sure my blood pressure just about goes through the roof. I'm thinking, "oh dear Lord, NOOOOOOooooooooo!" That's the last thing we need.
I can definitely relate to how you feel. We also have people at our ministry who can be very selfish and not realize that they are damaging their witness, and bringing negative light to the ministry (in the case of visitors).
I think that you and dh should strongly consider a private meeting with these members. I also think that you need to have a staff or board member there as a witness. I would approach it by telling them that you truly care for them as members and you would like to see them grow to the plave where they can be a blessing to others through giving instead always looking to receive. I would also throw in there at some point that the people who they are asking are being put in a very ackward and unfair position, and that you do not wish to see this behavior continue. Let them know that God wants to be their source. He wants them to depend on him and not on other people. If he does not provide it, then they should not beg for it. They should learn to be content with what God has blessed them with. If these people have children, then this cycle of being selfish and buying what you want and begging for what you need has to be broken.
I would try to love on them and chasten them at the same time. This is a very difficult situation. I will be praying for you and dh and for this family to receive your instruction.
We really do not have this problem in our church, but in my ministry, I have experienced this a few times. There is a freind I will call her "Red". Red is a 42 year old Christian with a daughter, whom I will call "Dez". Red and Dez have worked the public and non-public systems as long as I have known her, 14 years. She is a single mother. She almost never attends service at her church, she and Dez are always in the church nursery playing with the babies. She begged the local Christian school to let them work off the price of her tuition(Dez is 15). But then, she wants more and more. Dez wants to play in the band and do cheerleading and other very expensive extras. Dez cries and begs and acts like a baby and the adults in the school give in. They have almost always been on public assistance of some kind including section 8 housing. She only had to pay $2.00 a month in rent and keep the place clean. I went there one day to bring them some things and I mean this ladies, you had to walk and shuffle sideways through the whole apartment! I offered to help her clean, she turned me down. A few weeks later, they were evicted for not caring properly for the place. Well, she came to me crying and I discussed it with my DH and we took them in.
What a big mistake! They broke every rule from day one. They refused to help me around the house, and when they did, they BOTH whined about it like little kids. They used the food stamps they had to go to the hot deli bar at the market every night for take out, or went to the Burger King! I never asked her for anything, but you would think she would buy some milk or something and bring it home. They eventually decided they would rather live in the worse shelter I have ever seen, than live here. They left, and they left all their stuff here for months cluttering up my home.
I soon found out that her church bought them a car and all new furniture for her new section 8 apartment! A couple of people have left the church because of Red and Dez because they are constantly begging for money. And the Pastor, dear though he is, keeps giving in. But I think it's because she is so relentless and manipulative. The school, last time I heard has refused to carry her another year.
It makes me angry that she is still "working the system" because when I packed up their stuff, I found about 500 beanie babies, electronic games , dvd's, and thousands of dollars worth of clothes from a teen store at the mall called "Limited Too". My girls shop at the Goodwill, because our ministry can cost us alot of money. I was really angry when I saw all of that. Dez is also enrolled in 4 different dance classes! And all this girl does is whine about what more she wants. And her Mom, Red, just goes around begging everyone for money so they can live like rich girls.
I have confronted her, she says, "I know, but I want Dez to have things like other girls." . I told her she needs to get a job and provide for her daughter the best she can within the means that God has provided, and stop trying to keep up with the other girls. I also said that she and Dez both need to take responsibility for keeping their environment clean, and that they can't live off of others forever. But they are both very content to live with thier hands out.
We have a very sick child, and we sometimes need a little help, especially now since I can not earn a part-time salary anymore, but we do not live beyond our means and then every month expect our church or our friends to bail us out! That is just being sinful and selfish, and dishonest if you want the cold , hard truth.
A talk did not work with Red, but I strongly advise a meeting with this family and someone else to serve as a witness. Nobody likes to confront people, but we have a Biblical duty to show our Brothers and Sisters the right path when they have strayed. And they are causing others to stumble, hence the getting in thier face incident. That must have been terrible for you! I know you felt awful, but you also felt you had no choice.
There have been times when we could not afford to participate in things, so we went PRIVATELY to the person in charge and asked him or her to hold a check until payday. This has worked well. It is a little inconvienient for them, but they know that we are in a bad situation right now, and they still get the money, just a little later. They also know that we are honest, and hard working for the Lord. Maybe this can be an occasional option, I don't know how you work things there.
But, they do need a stearn talking to. They need to know that this can not continue.
Good luck, and God bless! lw
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
I know what you mean...and, you know, we'd be more than happy to hold a check for someone or have them even make small payments, or such. But this family would never do that. It's a total handout or nothing, plain and simple. The situation you describe above is exactly what we are dealing with. Spending welfare money, social security, other types of govt. support like food stamps, etc. on things they don't need (videos, sattelite, acrylic nails, etc. etc. while people at the church continue to pay for things for them. If they think people will not pay for them in advance, they just show up at the event and expect to participate, or go up to someone and say, 'please help me and pay for me, I don't have the money." This past week, one of my deacon's wives told me we really need to speak to them because she said, "if I was a visitor in a church and someone in the church begged me for money, I may want to go back if I felt like I was going to be accosted for money..." I got to thinking about that and it's really true. We can't have them walking around begging for money. We have people who are in TRUE NEED that really need help -- (and we are helping them), and we support over 100 missionaries who really need the help, and quite frankly the money that people are paying them is a total waste and could be used on one of our truly needy families or missionaries. I think that's what makes me the sickest of all. I see the true needs around us and thinking, "what are these people whining about?"
It's very sad and you just want them to realize, God has better for them. Can you imagine living your life this way? They have resources at their disposal, and they are not using them properly. (and they have been trained as to how to.)
It is sad. And I agree that a visitor seeing this or being accosted would be a turn off. I know that with Red and Dez, as I have said, people have told my DH that a few people have left her church over this.It's because she is so relentless in the way she persues people. I felt very foolish taking them to the local clothing closet for clothes, then later,finding mounds of expensive clothing when I packed her things. I mean, I hate to say how I feel here, but the reputation of my ministry to women is at stake here. I arranged to take them there because I told the ministry leader they were needy;single mom, etc.. I really felt used, and she is supposed to my friend.
It seems to me that they are very skilled in "making the rounds" and I just did not know until I took them in. I also learned why Dez was on medicine for chronic constipation, on the backs of the american taxpayers. When they moved in, I would feed her during the day while Red was in Tech. school training. All Dez would eat was
1)pudding
2)cheese pizza
3)peanut butter on white bread
4)hard salmai
5)ramen noodles
6)soda pop
That's it! She would not eat anything else! Until the third day here, when she realized I was not going to give in to that! I served meatloaf, potatos, and green beans. Red said "Well, she is not used to FANCY food like that." What? Now I am venting Deanna. But I have no other safe place to do this. Finally, I convinced the grandfather to tell the doctor the truth about her daily junk food diet, and he cut off the laxitives! At least I accomplished that much.
But it bothers me, we just got paid today, and after bills and the grocery shopping we did today, DH said we have very little to get us to next payday( 2 weeks away). We have four girls to feed. And as little as we have, we were still willing to share it with them, and they squandered the opportunity God used us to give them. I bet I can go to her new Section 8 apartment ladies and find the same thing as last time. I have it on good authority that nothing has changed. It makes me feel inside that we wasted our time. It really hurts. We just had to lay out $45.00 to haul away all the stuff they have left here for the last 6 months. DH was not happy. Can we blame him?
Thanks for letting me vent a little. It helps. Deanna, I hope you and DH and the others find the right way to deal with this family. It sounds like they are peaceful with living on the handouts of others. It's very sad. For all involved. They are missing all of God's blessings. lw
-- Edited by LW at 15:09, 2004-10-19
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
Please do not tell me you are STILL helping these people? Are you still feeding her? I think there's a limit to this pain and suffering you are enduring at her expense.
The situation you describe is exactly the way these other people live. I just have no time for it. There are other true needs out there that really need our attention.
No indeed my friend. I will always love them both. But my kids and my ministry are already stretched to the limit. We have decided that as long as she continues to make bad choices for herself and child, we will not help them anymore. I have Mommies of very sick kids who need my help. My latest BP was 180/110. I now have to start meds. I have just had so much on me. She is 42 years old, she needs to take responsibility for her own choices. I will pray for and love her, I will be there for her to talk to, but I can not help her anymore! Am I mean? lw
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
No, you are not mean. This is called WISDOM. Many people out there truly DO need our ministry. Some just suck the life out of us with absolutely no change in their lives. They don't truly want help -- they don't truly want a life change. I think God shows you the difference and guides you to who you are supposed to help.
When I think of this, I think of the passage of scripture that talks about casting our pearls before swine. (Not to say these people are pigs by any means, please don't take it that way) but what I am saying is, you need to give of yourself to the things God truly wants you to give to. I believe God guides us in our giving. There is no way we can meet every need. So, which ones does God want us to meet personally? I think he leads us and tells us if we listen.
You are so right! This was just harder because she was my friend. But after prayer and reflection, God told me that the best way to help her, is not to anymore. After finding out that the church gave her the new car, Red told me that she had an accident and bought the car with the insurance money. So now she is lying to me. I feel that we have done all we can do, and I have gained some wisdom from this. About how far to go for someone in need. I cleaned her home, packed for her, fed them, took them places, gave them money, etc.. Then I took them in. I feel badly that it did not work out better, but that is not up to me. Red needs to get hold of her own life and be an adult. Thank you Deanna, I needed to talk this one out! lw
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
