Okay ladies, I want to bounce something off of you and ask for your suggestions. Obviously the first thing I need to do is pray about this (and I have been) but I want your insight on how you would handle the matter in addition to prayer.
Tell me what you would do with the following. We have someone, I will call them Bro. & Sis. Whinestein (get it? Whine - stein?! Ha! ) and they are highly respected by many in the church. I think, or rather I know, people would not have as much respect if they knew how much complaining they did. Most do not know that. They SHOULD be armor bearers to my dh, not complainers but unfortunately sometimes they add pressure instead of relieve it. You know the old syndrome of people in the church only seeing people on Sundays and basing what they see on that...not 'the whole picture' of the person as we as their pastors see.
Let me say that first of all, one reason they have influence is because they are an asset in many ways, in doing certain things in the church. But the whining from them on the other hand is sometimes just overwhelming. They probably would not ever see it as complaining, but more as a commitment to "have things right." Okay, so you have the Whinesteins (actually we have two Whinestein couples and they are often in cahoots.) And...it doesn't matter how great things are, how incredible God is moving, what great thing just happened...as soon as you bring it up, Bro. Whinestein will say something like "well, that's great but what about the dead tree in the parking lot that needs to be removed?" Note that they will not want to be the one to remove it, they just want to point it out. There have been times past where they may have done something about it but not really anymore. They just point at everything that is wrong. And let me say the frustrating thing is, there really isn't much wrong with our church. There is no perfect church but I truly believe especially at this point, ours is as close to near perfect as you can get. I don't say that to brag, but we are just blessed with wonderful people and ministries. We have come light years ahead in the past 4 years. I can't think of a "weak link" that we have right now.....things are so aligned and we are growing so much. It was a real road to get to this point, but we are really moving ahead. Unfortunately, the Whinesteins most often see the glass as half empty, if you know what I mean. Sometimes I want to say, "if you don't feel the same way about our church, why are you here?"
I have to tell you ladies, I LOVE MY CHURCH. I realize for many pw's, that is odd. Many churches use and abuse you (I know, I used to pastor one!) Many pw's wouldn't go to their church if their dh wasn't that pastor. I am blessed in that I am crazy about my church. So when people put it down, it makes me incredibly mad. Especially somebody who is on the inside. When somebody outside criticizes us I just say, "oh well, they just don't 'get it.' They criticize Northside because they aren't part of us and they dont' understand our church culture." But what about when it's an insider? When they make a negative comment I just want to deck them. I'm like a mama bear...I'm thinking, 'why can't you see all the best in this place and not the 'speck' that you feel so driven to point out?'
Examples of things they might say are the following and this is no exaggeration. If we say, "Wow, ten people were just saved Sunday morning," Whinestein will come back with. "Well, in my recollection it may have just been nine...and by the way, have you noticed that a child was running through the parking lot and collided with Sister McGillicuty on her way into the building, and that besides that there is a crack in the sidewalk by the breezeway?"
It gets old. Real old. I just get sick, sick, sick of it. Who cares about all this other crap they feel so responsible for some reason to bring to our attention? We have umpteen people getting saved (100 so far this year). Attendance is higher than it has been in four years. Momentum is soaring. We probably added 15 new families over the summer. People are so excited. And then there is...Bro. and Sis. Whinestein that have to analyze the heck out of all I just said. To all I just said they would probably say, "Are you sure attendance wasn't higher four years and a month ago? Well, I wouldn't say the momentum is soaring...maybe it was just moving a little. I wouldn't actually use the word, "soaring"...Well, are you sure it's 15 families? I counted 13....and by the way, don't you think the office building might need painting? It's fading a little bit especially when the sun hits it a certain way......." ARrRRrrrhhhh!!! They make me want to speak in tongues for about 15 hours straight sometimes..............If they weren't anybody influential in the church I would care less, say, "c'ya, wouldn't wanna be ya" and go on with my life. But I can't because...again...the persona that they have with others. (Have I told you before...I hate that whole stupid persona thing? Arrrghhh!)
It's not like I can just totally ignore the Whinesteins. I'm around them and more important than that, lots of other people are around them. So, when you have Bro. or Sis. Whinestein, or their other co-horts who say, "I think we only had 9 saved Sunday, not 10" or point out the latest flaw to you (mind you it is never anything colossal, usually something that only they and people like them notice)....what would you say?
I am to the point where I am ready to ask, "Um...do you EVER have anything positive to say?" Or say, "I really don't want to hear this again..." but dh says I can't. So I don't.
Okay, so then I distance myself. Whenever they are around I am busy with something else or just be quiet.
Then dh says I have to go out of my way to not do that. It's the "Pastor Deanna curse." I am outgoing, vivacious, very happily "in your face" type person.....one who hugs necks, kisses on the cheek, gives lotsa "love ya's" as I'm walking through the halls, etc...so the downside of this personality I am cursed with (just half kidding there) is that when I get quiet AT ALL, or am scarce for a little while, people automatically know I'm not happy with them. My dh doesn't want me to be quiet when this happens because people know I'm mad about something and then they try to figure out...what it might be. He doesn't want me saying anything on the other hand that would upset the person. Basically, he never wants me to make waves. I understand. If I show I'm upset it can just cause problems for him and he doesn't need the stress. And unfortunately, just me being quieter than normal, makes waves. What he basically wants of me is to just smile back at them...make some generic smiley statement...and just chalk it up as their personality. He still wants me to hop up and down like I usually do and hug all over them like I do everybody. Do you have any earthly idea how hard that is? I can always handle being cordial to people but going over the edge of excitement with somebody like Whinesteins is excruciating. I'd rather go for 10 mammograms than do that anyday.
So, that leaves me with usually talking to dh about how HE should handle it since I'm obviously left with very little solution myself but to just mad as a hornet inside, give an academy award winning performance in front of the Whinesteins and anybody around them and then go home to call a pastoring partner who cares and vent for a while.
So...the next time Bro. Whinesteen starts on his next kick, what do you suggest? Many times they say the things to me. I'm between a rock and a hard place because with dh's wishes that I not say anything, but not be quiet either...well, I just feel like I'm like the old saying... "darned" if I do and "darned if I don't" if you know what I mean. His expectation of me when dealing with these people is...totally fake it. Which just about kills me because I hate faking anything. When I tell him that he says, "well, don't fake it." Okay, so don't fake it. How in the world am I supposed to NOT fake something I don't feel? I think men are clueless to things like this sometimes because honestly they often don't get as upset about these things as much as we do although I will say, Larry hates Whinesteins whining and I do know that.
I do believe dh needs to be sterner with it, and I truthfully think he's getting much more sick of it and is ready to have a little more fight in him concerning it. If you were myself or my dh and someone tried to play down the successes to you and blow up the small miniscule flaws, what would you say? Keep in mind again, you can't simply dismiss it because Whinesteins are........connected.
I love you all...thanks so much for listening. Just writing this to you makes me feel better right now. I just get so frustrated with being 'in the middle' with nowhere to go but fakeland, and I hate, hate, hate going to fakeland and said I would never do it in the ministry, but here I am standing on the edge of it. Thanks for letting me be real.
I have people like your Whinesteins for relatives. But I can limit my interactions; you cannot since these are faithful members. I pray God equip you for the task at hand. His wisdom will get you through this.
And I often wondered if your congregants knew of this board. This is my safe haven and retreat!
I know this much, just like God worked it out for you when the last couple left and the church went to a new level, God will work this out as well. Praise God for all the wonderful growth in the ministry. God is awesome.
Yes, he did work it out and I'm so grateful. What a new level we went to......
I don't see these folks leaving...it'll be interesting to see the unique way God will work this one out. I know He will. Just pray that I can navigate my way around fakeland because I'm getting ever so tired of being invited to live there.
I would like to pray over this get back to you. But off the top of my head... a woman mentor of 50+ years in ministry once said that God allows these people in our lives to keep us humble. Humility is a strange thing... when we think we've got it we've just lost it.
I do not like negative people who downplay every accomplishment but I also do not provoke them by bragging, exaggerating, or being overly positive or demonstrative about our ministry. Insecure people often try to sabotage everything you do or say. Is it possible they are afraid of growing in numbers and feeling insecure? Do they put their hand to the plow and fix the areas they are mentioning? Are they seeking your permission to "fix" these things or just telling you what to do?
We had a core group who were "naysayers". My dh says "Success is the sweetest revenge." It also speaks for itself over the course of time. We just decided to overwhelm them with new people and soon they won't have as big of a voice! I know how you feel. It will take being prayed-up when you see them and asking God for supernatural wisdom what to say or not to say at a tempting moment.
Sometimes it comes down to loving our enemies in the church! They know not what they do. But since they are "key" people, I am going to pray for you that you will think of a creative way to hold them accountable for their words. Words are powerful. They need to come to realize that. There is a good series on video and workbook that covers the tongue very well. It's called Conversation Peace. Are they in a class or do they teach one? Perhaps they could teach this curriculum. Just a thought.
I so understand "Fakeland." I hate going there. When we've had problems at the church & I've discussed them w/ my mother (also a pw), she tells me to just go in there, smile, & hug necks. That is SOOOO hard, especially when you know that the person is at that very moment , planning your demise. I also understand the "Whinesteins." We've had some "core" members who must be next of kin to your Whinesteins. But, PTL, they ended up leaving. We didn't say that at first, but w/in the first month, dh & I would say to each other "Do you realize that since the Whinesteins left, our church is so much happier."
My only other advice may surprise you after my last post of depression (and I know I need to listen to my own advice). I truly believe in Philippians 4:8 "Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, Whatsoever things are of good report, If there be any virture, and if there be any praise, think on these things." (Did I just blow the Missionette code that I learned years ago?)
When it comes to ministry, this has been my theme for a year. When I'm counseling, after people tell me the bad, I make them write down a list of the good. I've stressed Phip 4:8 at my ladies meetings, in Sunday School. I start every Sunday School Class, Kids Club, Kids Church, with "tell me something good." Before prayer requests, I want my classes to think on the good.
My suggestion would be to focus on Phillipians 4:8. Let them hear you say it from the pulpit. (Isn't there a Missionettes week coming up? I don't know b/c we don't have Missionettes in our church.) Dwell on it. Let them know that it's your new motto. Then when Bro. or Sis. Whinestein come to you about whatever, you can say "I hear what you're saying, but you know my new motto, I'm focusing on the positive. Isn't God good? He gave us that building that needs painting & He's given us the finances to do it."
Trace
P.S. I'd really love the secret to navigating through Fakeland.
Twoasone, it's hard for me to explain it to you on here without disclosing it too much (I'll e-mail you privately and then once you know the full situation you can understand where I'm coming from on this.) Essentially there is no way the person would not hear "updates" of how the church is doing on a very regular basis.
Larry and I are big believers that we need to talk about the good things of God and what he is doing in the church. I always say especially with anything we announce, we need to be positive. If there are negative things, we don't announce them. I can't stand it when I go to a church (visiting) and they make an announcement or even place something in their bulletin like... "many of our teachers have stepped down and we need serious help" or something like that. If that would happen in my case I'd privately recruit a few teachers and then announce, "praise God, we're moving forward." I just think we need to share faith building things with the people and point out all the wonderful things the Lord is doing. It builds morale and their faith.
The issue is, although in a form of leadership, the Whinesteins have a critical bent about them. Part of it is, if they are upset about anything it causes them to see everything through different eyes. So, let's say they are upset if dh would have changed the service times. Well, instead of getting excited about the good things God is doing, they are upset that service times have changed, so they try to drum up critical things to talk about or find a "discrepancy" with something we have announced. Only their discrepancy is honestly never real because they are not fully aware of all the details we are aware of.
As far as your advice, Trace, of letting them know I'm choosing to focus on the positive, I totally agree, but that has been my mode of operation for a long time now. I'm already living that, and I think this is what bothers them so much. When they bring up something negative I always shoot back with something positive and say that's what I'm focused on. This is what has caused the problem in the first place, not just with me...but they are upset about it in general because 99.9% of our people are excited and it's all they talk about is everything God is doing and how great things are.
I do believe they are insecure...in fact I know they are. They say they want us to grow and to some degree I believe they truly do. But the issue is, I believe they want us to grow THEIR way. And the point is, well..........I don't think I have to make that point, you all understand.
In my last church, I was the queen of Fakeland! Because, other than my fellow pastoral staff members and a handful of saints among wolves (Yes...a mixed metaphor, but you get my drift!), pretty much everyone had something negative to say about me. So I could hardly go around telling everyone that they were wrong...otherwise it would have been, "Gee, our children's pastor has a chip on her shoulder!!"
Here's what I did (besides pray for strength!) when I got so angry, I couldn't stand it: I came up with something...anything...that I could sincerely compliment them on. Sometimes it was a stretch, let me tell you! But ultimately, people like to talk about themselves or their families. So if I couldn't think of anything at all about them, I would say something like, "I really enjoyed having your child/grandchild in kids' church last Sunday." There was one lady (very crabby - didn't really like anyone!) who had a nose ring, so I started a conversation about that with her - and she was genuinely happy to give me all sorts of advice about nose piercing, of all things!!
Basic Interpersonal Communication 101: Disarm people by getting them to talk about themselves. Once they've been able to happily babble about themselves/their families/their jobs/whatever for awhile, then they're much happier, and either a.) They'll ultimately be more positive about everything, or b.) It will be time for service to start or time for them to go home, and you won't get around to the "complaining" portion of the conversation!
And if all else fails...imagine them neck deep in a vat of green Jello. Trust me...it will at least put a smile on your face .
I know how you feel. Even as a APW I had to be nice and fake so much. Was really hard to do when you are clinically depressed but with God's help I did. But I understand the frustration. Becuase you know if this were a secular business operation, they would get the boot of correction or the boot of exit. Yet because its church and your the pastor you HAVE to take it. Its enough to make a grown woman want to lay down in the floor and pitch herself a royal two year old tantrum! (Might not be bad idea! lol) King David did it lots of times! The frustration comes in for me in that I am NOT a good faker. I just have my doubts as to whether Paul would have taken some of these behaviors out of people. Do we pet people too much today? I mean, we all would have to admit that we wonder this sometimes. I know I have. Are we doing people a disservice all the while giving ourselves an ulcer due to the stress we are having to hold in from their behavior and attitudes. I got a kick out of this story the other day. If nothing else it may help you get a little laugh. But our pastor back home in MS told my dh the other day that the church financial secretary (who is the meanest lady on the planet that I personally think needs deliverance from a mean devil) who never has anything nice to say, who even pushes the envelope with how she treats the pastor and his wife -- well, the church had the owner of one of the strip/dance clubs in town come and want to be baptised, no joke. People are so excited over it. We had prayed and reached out for years to this club, its ladies and its owner. So this is a miracle. Well, she comes in the office and says I'll believe it when I see it kind of thing. Pastor looks at her and said what if I said I believed you were saved when you quit gossiping and being mean to everybody? SHe got this look and just stormed back to her office. But she deserved it. She toned it down a notch or two as well. (He has learn to be alittle rougher with her when she gets extremely rude with folks) But I got a kick out of that. Made me think, why shouldnt we be alittle more truthful with folks? But we know we can't. Thus the frustration. Just wanted to let you know I hear ya. Your Jakes and I'm waving a hanky at you hunny!!! Amen!
Thanks Puppetmaster...I remember how you were in fakeland for so long and how frustrating it was for you. And...you made it! (Gives me hope)
Cassandra, your story is very funny. My dh comes up with quips like that and when he actually uses them, (by telling the person and not just me) it makes my day. My dh is hysterical but most times he keeps things like this to himself but just tells me privately. He's such a controlled person in his emotions, and never lets people get the best of him. For me, it's harder.
I too believe we pet people too much. One person on our staff asked, "do you think people like that exist so that we have checks and balances?" My husband said no. He believes that God doesn't put anybody in charge of being critical. It's not a gift of the Holy Spirit. Criticism and complaining are wrong - period, and God hasn't ordained anyone to that ministry. In fact, we believe the only thing God has called ANYONE to do in the body of Christ concerning checks and balances would be church financial accountability. Usually when people talk about checks and balances they are getting into a church being run by someone other than God and the pastor.......
Although it's wrong, it does exist and we have to find a way to navigate through it. Part of my stress is often that my dh is so longsuffering and patient -- he takes it for a lot longer than I would.
Thank you ladies, for helping me through fakeland. It's awesome to know though, that I can come and talk here about real life with people who understand.
I too believe we pet people too much. One person on our staff asked, "do you think people like that exist so that we have checks and balances?" My husband said no. He believes that God doesn't put anybody in charge of being critical. It's not a gift of the Holy Spirit.
LOVE that!!! Seriously...if I could sew worth a hill of beans, I'd stitch it on a sampler and hang it in my office!!!!
) and they are highly respected by many in the church. I think, or rather I know, people would not have as much respect if they knew how much complaining they did. Most do not know that. They SHOULD be armor bearers to my dh, not complainers but unfortunately sometimes they add pressure instead of relieve it. You know the old syndrome of people in the church only seeing people on Sundays and basing what they see on that...not 'the whole picture' of the person as we as their pastors see. 
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