I would LOVE to have your wisdom on this issue, not only for the book I'm currently writing, but also for my own help in church ministry.
People leaving the church is one of the stickiest situations we all face. Of course when people leave, others are curious. When people leave and others in the church say, "where's so and so?" how do you generally respond?
Here's the difficulty for me...
I do not ever lie about it, however if someone has said something that I beleive is not true (something like, "the church is not friendly enough") I don't want to repeat negativity that I do not believe is true. So I resist saying, "Martha said she left because the church is not friendly enough." I simply say, "Martha is no longer attending the church." Now, in times past I have said things like, "Well, if you want to know why Martha left, ask her." This can also end poorly because then they call Martha up and get a total earful of trash.
Then there are the times someone leaves and refuses to tell you why.
Just last week someone left. After many years of being their pastor, they TEXTED me. Seriously. After wiping their spiritual butt for all these years, that's what they do. They TEXT ME and say, "I'm no longer attending Celebration." So I immediately pick up the phone and call them. They refuse to answer. I text them back and say, "I love you. Please, let's talk about this." They ignore my text. They do not respond to any of my attempts to connect with them.
Nothing has happened between this person and I, to my knowledge, or with my husband. I do not know of any reason they would be upset, or why they left. There is literally zero communication and zero knowledge on my part of why they have made this decision.
So last night a person in the church e-mails me and asks where they are. I answered back one sentence, "So and so is no longer attention Celebration," and that was it.
They will probably call them. And whatever is bothering this person will probably come out on the phone. (And obviously that will be unbiblical of them to tell them, without dealing with it as Matthew 18 says)
My question to you ladies is, how do you deal with such situations?
Do you just say, "they left"?
Do you tell others to call them if they want to know?
Do you refuse to discuss the details if you know them?
I would love to know how others handle this. It's always been a tough one for me.
I love you all and thank you for who and what you are in my life!
There is an old adage that says "If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, its yours forever. If it doesn't, then it was never meant to be." I think unfortunately that this is a cute quote but it isn't always true... Perhaps it was just not meant to be a forever, but a for now...
When people leave (as they surely will - whether by volition or divine will) I think we feel obligated to explain their absence if to no one else but ourselves... But here is the reality - some people simply are there with you for the season that you are in to get you through or to teach you a lesson...
As we progress from glory to glory, there are some people who are satisfied with the Outer Court and if your desire is for the Holy of Holies, they can't go with you... Why because to get from the Outer Court to the Holy of Holies there is some cleansing and some purification that one must endure - but even before they are stripped of all external encumbrances, they must get past the masses in the Inner Court... Some people just want to be AT church, they don't want to be THE church, or not even necessarily IN church...
Some people just can't stay...
I had a preacher tell me not too long ago - I know my family and I should be a part of Salem, but we just haven't joined because we know that you and Pastor would put us to work... WHAT?!?!?!? I was shocked that he would admit this to me but then I was grateful for the honesty - my church DEMANDS that you come from the fringe and get in the fray.... You can't be called, anointed, and all of that glorious stuff and just sit and do nothing... Or more honestly in the words of my beloved DH - you can sit and do nothing, you just can't do it here.
Then there are those who leave because of personality issues... My husband is a jokester and a although he is Dr. Brunswick - he fancies himself to be a "ghetto preacher" - he is the king of keeping it real - and sometimes keeping it real goes against what it is politically correct... Not everyone can handle that... So they may leave because he hurt their feelings - offended their sensibilities - stepped too hard on their toes... Some may leave because I am too touchy, others because I don't touch them enough...
And so to the question - when people leave and others ask me where they are I generally say that ABC decided to move on - I generally don't give an explanation because most of the time what I was told isn't the real reason anyway... If they left because of an offense that I can right, I endeavor to do so - but if they are leaving because well they just want to go - I realize that is another seat for me to fill and I thank God that he hasn't stopped adding to the church daily such as should be saved...
But I also say when people ask me where ABC is - oh my goodness have you called them to check on them? How many Sundays have they been gone?? Wow - did you know of any issues?? Because MOST of the time, when someone asks where someone went it isn't because they don't know the story but rather that they want to hear your take on it OR because they want you to be the gossip... (I meant the source... LOL!)
You've brought up so many great points. I so agree with you that often when someone asks you where someone has been, THEY KNOW SOMETHING, they just want to get your take on it. (And IMHO that is sooooooooooo wrong.) I think it's deceitful if you know where someone has been, to ask the pastor/pastor's wife just to see what they are going to say. But you are right, folks do it.
Love what your husband says, "You can sit and do nothing, just not here..." Ha ha!
That's GREAT.
As to your, "Oh my goodness, have you called to check on them???" I do that too. I find that usually really takes people aback. They never think you're going to say that. And it's a great answer, although it's a double edged sword for me. I don't like saying it in one sense, because I honestly don't want them calling the person if I sense in my spirit that they have left for a negative reason. I don't want them hearing the garbage. So I usually reserve me, "Oh my goodness, have you called to check on them?" for cases where eople are just missing but I sense it's something like missing for illness or recreational/family pursuits.
Perhaps more than "when people leave" this post should have been titled, "when people ask about people leaving..." The motivation of their question is always what's important to me.
Sometimes I wonder if people have any care about our feelings as pastors when they ask this question...know what I mean?
It is always a very tough place to be. In our last pastorate we had two families leave the church within a month of each other. When people asked us if we knew where they were or why they had not been in church in lets say 2 weeks, generally we could be honest and say we are not aware of the reason. We also had a ministry within the church where one of the leaders would call those that missed two weeks in a row to see if there was anything we could do to bless them (if we had not been told they would be on vacation or someone was sick). Generally in many cases we were never told the real reasons they were leaving and if we were told we surely did not share the garbage that their reasons. When people would asked in general though we found it was just a "trap" to get us to spill what we knew or didn't know. Sometimes people may know more than we do and will question us to see if we even care if the "family/person" has left. It's the attitude of "well if our pastors don't care about them leaving then they won't care if we do." Most of the time when we had people leave we would just tell those that asked us that, "Mr/Mrs Mover have decided to go elsewhere for personal reasons. Please just pray God leads their steps." Honestly if people want to know they will call or ask other people in the church. We always did our best to only discuss real reasons with our leadership and if it was a reason they felt we could correct we would, if it wasn't something we as leaders could change we would simply pray for that person/family.
Great wisdom here. These are areas where I struggle - people leaving & then knowing what to say.
Over the years, I have learned not to take things so personally, but this has been a challenge. Did I do something? Should I have done more? There are those people who leave and I celebrate internally. And then there are people who I invest a lot of time, energy (and dare I say personal finances) to later be told "we just don't feel like this is the church for us." This makes me want to scream. My tendency is to analyze every conversation, every church service, etc., but all I do is make myself sick and the devil very happy. I have learned to tell myself, "You will not be distracted by this." I'm still working on what to say when questioned by the church members. I am definitely going to be using some of your suggestions.
This issue is something that dh & I have dealt with more than we would like over the last several months. We have been pastoring at our current church about 7 months. I'm not at liberty here to discuss what happened before we came in, but know that the church was FILLED with sin from the top down. And God cleaned house. This has been a painful process. The church does not have a big congregation, so when people leave, it is very noticeable. And then others become discouraged. So the challenge for us is to continue to encourage those that remain. And God is doing great things...answering prayers left and right. We are seeing a change in the people that are there. There is an air of excitement among the congregation that something good is about to happen. God is bringing in new people, one at a time.
As I heard Rick Warren say recently, "Do you want a mushroom or an oak tree? It takes 6 hours to grow a mushroom and 30 years to grow an oak tree." God has given dh & I a great vision. God gave dh a vision several years ago, and we both feel that this is the church where we will see the vision come to pass. Most of the time, we are up. And usually when one of us is down, the other is up. And on the rare occasion, we both get down at the same time.
I would appreciate any insight or advice as to what to say to people when they are discouraged when people have left.
Trace, I love your question and think it deserves a thread of it's own. This is a VERY important question.
I am going to suggest you post it in it's own thread, maybe something like:
What do you say to people in the church who are discouraged that others have left?
I'm going to reserve what I say for posting on that individual post but I just want to say THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THIS UP.
Now, on to what you said about celebrating internally...I've done some of that. There was a lady who left who for YEARS came to me and told me all the things people outside the church (others who left) were saying about me. She would tell me all this and then say, "But I'm with you, PD...I stood up for you...I told 'em I love you." My husband always said that was bull -- that if these people kept telling her things it was becuase they have a COMFORT LEVEL WITH HER to do so! If she truly stood up for me in the fashion that she should have, others would never feel comfortable to tell her anything again!
This went on for many years. Finally she left. At first I did not celebrate internally but my husband was instantly relieved when she left. And he convinced me, I should be relieved too. Now I realize, she was probably not just listening and taking up for me -- I'm sure at some point she chimed in.
There will always be people who want to know where "so-and-so" is, and why they are gone. This first tells me that their concern is out of curiosity, that if they were in true relationship with this other person, they would already know where that person is, and why they left. Secondy, there may be a few people who do not know due to other factors, but again, a pastor knows their sheep.
What kind of fruit does this sheep produce? Are they a yacky sheep? A whacky sheep? A stalky sheep?
Just tonight, I was talking to a support group of women that I teach, that people who isolate themselves, do so as a defense because they do not want to deal with a problem, or how they feel about a situation, so instead of confronting their feelings or their issue with a person, they cut off a relationship that have lasted for years, as if it never mattered. More often than not, it doesn't have anything to do with a pastor personally, but something has triggered their insecurity and emotions, and their coping skills revert back to problamatic responses.
Another factor to think about is confidentality about why these people leave,as pastors we are to maintain the upmost care with other's informaiton, and being general with another church member is for their own protection. There will be times you will know, and other times you will not, either way this should not be of such a grave concern to another person. In reality, people are interested in drama, changes, and why. We will not always know the why, but we are responsible for the sheep that God gives us, and what and how we invest in them. Some sheep come for a season, some for a transition, and some for a life time.
Just tonight, I was talking to a support group of women that I teach, that people who isolate themselves, do so as a defense because they do not want to deal with a problem, or how they feel about a situation, so instead of confronting their feelings or their issue with a person, they cut off a relationship that have lasted for years, as if it never mattered. More often than not, it doesn't have anything to do with a pastor personally, but something has triggered their insecurity and emotions, and their coping skills revert back to problamatic responses.
I believe this happens SO many times! I have sensed it in my spirit many times before that this was the reason some moved on but just couldn't express it in the terms you just did.
It is easier for people to leave than deal with their stuff. But as we both know, it means that their stuff never gets resolved. They carry the same insecurity and emotions to their next place...baggage they take right on into their next church and pastor/congregant relationship.
