Our YP and I just got back from a week at junior high camp, and this issue has been at the forefront of our minds...that is, the pastors who are excluded from the larger group of "important" pastors in our district. Many of them are women who are just as licensed, credentialed, and/or ordained as the men. Some of them are men, but they live outside of the Twin Cities area (where our district office is) or did not attend NCU or one of the other fine A/G colleges...still others (specifically at camp) are just moms who came along because their youth pastor begged for extra people to work as counselors. Nevertheless, it is a problem. I talked to one woman who is thinking about leaving the ministry because she is sick of it. She doesn't even come to District Council anymore. Still another had been pursuing her license to be a youth pastor, and has all but given up on it.
It's almost like in order to be recognized as a "valid" pastor - to be invited to be a chapel speaker at camp or lead an AIM trip, or any other number of things - you need to be a man, a jock, and have gone to NCU. The "powers that be" decide who is important, and those people get handed these huge ministries on a silver platter, and then are praised for running such a large group. Our YP took a youth group of 3 kids and in three years, has made it a group of 30-40...they come and go, but that's about how many teenagers in our community consider our church to be "their" church, as opposed to the three that she started out with. That is growth.
Neither of us fit the prototype of what an A/G youth pastor or children's pastor normally looks like, and we're fine with that. But we're getting tired of our district not working together as a team - we all have the same goal, and that is to win souls for Jesus. Our church is reaching people that the megachurch 1/2 hour down the road could never reach. They're reaching people that probably wouldn't come to our church. I guess I'm frustrated that if the pastors in our district aren't working together as the body of Christ, how can we expect the people in the churches?
My friend and I are very "in your face" about it. That is, we go to camp, District Council, and whatever else, and our attitude is, "You're going to ignore us? Well, we're here, and we're not going to let you!" But our hearts break for the other pastors who aren't like us - who don't know how to get in people's faces. We're planning to get more involved in the Women In Ministry group in our area to talk to some "key" women in our district and come up with a strategy.
The thing is, I don't necessarily think they're doing it intentionally. Our district leadership is amazing, and we actually have one of the most "female-friendly" districts in the country. I know that part of the issue is that one of our DYD's favorite youth pastors was in HIS youth group as a kid - and is one of the few from that youth group who is still serving Jesus (my sister-in-law was in that youth group, as were many of her friends that I still see from time to time!!). I definitely don't want to give the impression that our district leadership is full of chauvinist pigs or anything - just that there is a problem and this whole attitude needs to change...but how?
Aside from the power of prayer which is #1, your other vehicle for change in this is excellence, over a period of time. The greatest antidote to prejudice is success. You simply have to become too great for them to ignore.
Maria Khaleel, a woman senior pastor/preacher here in FL who is the 1st woman presbyter in the US, is a power packed example of this. At first people ignored her and her church and thought it was just a passing fad. But when her church had 1,000 converts in a year and it consistently runs between 700-1,000, they could not ignore it. She also became too great a preacher for them to ignore. Maria tells women that you simply have to work twice as hard as a man, that's just what it amounts to. And you can't win by being strident or "in your face" with this issue. You have to simply become the best at what you do.
I see mediocre men all the time who are handed positions greater than women who can out-strip them two to one when it comes to skill in ministry. That is just a fact and you are not going to change it. I hear men get up and preach who bore me to tears and I'm thinking, I could get up and whip up on this guy with one hand tied behind my back. I work twice as many hours as some of them. But it does not good to state that out loud (other than on this board! ), or to bind together with other women and "make some sort of statement." That just makes us look like we are with the "N.O.W." organization or some kind of crazy, butchy (for lack of a better phrase - sorry if that offends any of you) women's libbers.
Jesus was/is the greatest advocate of women who ever walked the face of the earth. He's 100% in support of your ministry. Walk in His power. Don't point out the "over-sights" of your not being asked to do these special ministries. Simply hone your ministry skills to the 'nth degree...become the very best preacher you can be, the very best teacher you can be, the very best pastor you can be, etc. etc. and become too large for them to put by the wayside anymore. NOTE TO SELF: THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT!
I know a preacher who used to distain me, I mean, they couldn't stand me. They were 100% against women in the ministry and although I didn't make any pointed remarks to him or anything, he just disliked me because I was being used and he saw God moving in my life and people responding to that. Well, he used to absolutely distain me but now he actually asks me for ideas for messages! I simply became too good at what I do for him to ignore! That's not to say I'm the best or anything, I mean, hey I have soooooooooooooo far to go! We all do. But my point it, I've worked hard at doing what I do well and with that combined with the supernatural power of God, anything is possible!!!
If they do not put you in position on the district level, work very hard where you're at to blow that children's ministry up as large as possible. Become large and in charge there in your local area, and believe me, somebody will take note. It might even take somebody from another denomination or somebody in your section to point out to those knot heads: "Um....you have PUPPETMASTER in your section/district, and you don't have her doing anything?! Are you guys out of your minds? She's tearing it up there in her community and ya'll are just letting her sit over there, not using her? You better call her while she still has an opening on her daytimer or it may be just too late for you boys!"
Trust me on this one - work hard - put your hand to the plow (I know you already do, but keep it up) When you think you have worked hard, work a little harder. Don't whine. You can't afford to ever let them see you sweat. Just keep doing what you do and be the best at it. Somebody is going to take notice and that person is going to be one lucky person because they will be the first to capitalize on your supertalent!
I guess "in your face" was a bad way to put it, lol!!
I definitely don't want to come across as some sort of "ultra-feminist" who needs to prove that a woman can do just as good of a job as a man. That is obnoxious. You're either called or you're not. Period. Whether you're male or female.
We just decided that we're going to be confident in our calling, and excited about our ministries when we go to any kind of district event - and while we aren't going to have the attitude of "I'm important because I'm a woman," we won't hide just because we're women, either! We make a point of talking to our DYD and CE Director every chance we get, just to update them on what's happening in our ministries. We brag on each other and our senior pastor when we have an opportunity.
I guess we are doing just about everything we can do at this point. Neither of us is vying for a position "at the top." I want God to use me wherever He puts me - I just think it's a shame that those who are "important" do not even feel like they need to give the time of day those of us who are "less important" in their eyes!
Puppetmaster: I understand where you are coming from. There definitely seems to be a "good ol' boy" philosophy out there, that tends to favor the "native sons." Here, it is difficult for outsiders to come in & be recognized by the district. There is definitely a man/woman difference as well, but things are getting better in both regards.
I think there are a couple of reasons for that. First, as you said, leaders feel comfortable w/ those that have served w/ them because they know them. If someone doesn't know you, they are not going to be comfortable asking you to be in a leadership role. I think that it is why it is so important to be in contact w/ your district officials. It's also good to say, "hey, I'm here if you need me..." It may be doing some menial task at first, but as you are faithful in the menial tasks, hopefully you'll be given more district responsibility. You can invite your officials out to lunch & let them get to know you, etc.
I also think that our presbyters & district officials are dealing w/ so much "junk" from the various churches & pastors (dealing w/ discipline issues, etc.) that they do not have time to develop relationships w/ other people. It's like you having a problem in your church. You're going to ask those that you know you can trust to do x,y, & z while you're dealing w/ the problems at hand. I think this goes for the section / district officials as well. Another reason to reach out & let them know that you want to be there to help them.
And as women, it may take reaching out over & over & over again.
I am not in a particular denom. but know that it is a universal problem among humans in general. And I cant say it enough, that book Deanna recommends about women teaching explains why! It helps you not take it personally (as from certain people) but you see the evil spiritual source behind it. Anyway...
I read this scripture last night and wanted to share it. It is a big amen to what Deanna posted.
I cor. 15:58 amplified version
Therefore my beloved brethren, be firm (steadfast), immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord [always being superior, excelling, doing more than enough in the service of the Lord], knowing and being continually aware that your labor in the Lord is not futile [it is never wasted or to no purpose].
Is that awesome or what! We re encouraged to to be superior at what we do! That was very encouraging to me--even when Deanna wrote it--then when I read that. It was like alight bulb went off. I am going to be pasting that all over my house!
Again I recommend everyone to read that book! (who said women cant teach!) I cant say it enough.
Thanks Cassandra, I'm glad the book has been a blessing to you. My mentor, Jean Coleman, recommended it to me years ago and it changed me too.
I am dealing with a "young'un" (is that how you spell it?) right now in ministry who is just starting out and is facing the prejudice concerning women in ministry. They are pretty much "in your face" and by that I don't mean in the proper way Puppetmaster is, but wanting to "make a statement" in a verbal slam sort of way. I see the big crash and burn coming if they don't take my advice, but sometimes you have to learn the hard way. Jean Coleman told me, never, never, never bring it up from the pulpit - don't preach on it - don't focus on it - it will just stir people up worse against you and it won't solve anything. She advised me, there are too many other things to preach on, namely the cross, the Spirit, the power of the Word, healing, etc. If you just preach on those things and let the Spirit of God flow and change people, it will do more good than a million sermons on "women in the ministry". When they SEE women in the ministry in action and lives being changed, that's what changes their minds at times, but it does take time. Only God and time can do that.
I also don't have "meetings" with people who want to discuss the issue with me. It's not up for discussion with Larry and I. For instance, we have had people visit our churches before (I have never had this here in Tampa, but at my previous church/churches, I did) where they would come for a few weeks or months and possibly want to be part of the church and then they would try to set an appointment to discuss how we felt about women in ministry and just how extensive my role, my authority, etc., etc. went in the church. Sometimes they were uncomfortable with how much they saw me preach, teach, etc. and they also wondered, what types of decisions was I making behind the scenes? Sometimes someone would have the audacity to try to meet with us to see if we could we swayed on our stand on the issue, or try to debate with us. We have never done that. We dont' meet with people about it and we don't debate it. We lead as God has called us to and if people are not comfortable in this atmosphere there are plenty of other churches they can become a part of.
I do not feel it is my obligation to meet/counsel with people who want to talk through these issues with me when they have a problem with it. Let the Spirit of God deal with them. I do not have time nor inclination to debate with people.
A great resource on this is also CBE (Christians for Biblical Equality) and they have a website and tons and tons of books on the issues. Great stuff!
I can totally understand and respect not wanting to give major responsibility to someone that you don't know whether or not they can handle it - believe me, I do the same thing in my own ministry and in the theatre company I work with.
What bothers me is the "clique" that has formed among the pastors who have been deemed "important." It's a shame, because YP and I both feel like we have a lot to learn from some of the children's/youth pastors who have been around the block a few times. We want to sit down and get to know someone who is running a successful ministry - talk about what works, what doesn't, etc. Maybe compare notes with each other - give and receive advice...Heck, we'd be happy if they'd at least bother to try to learn our names! Maybe say hi once in awhile at district events...
At teen camp each year they do a "counselor's appreciation" pizza party after the kids have gone to bed. YP and I went and we sat by ourselves the entire time...until one of the moms who was there counseling came and talked to us, because she was also by herself. I might add, we are both extremely outgoing people - not the "shrinking violet" types who sit curled up in a ball and then complain that no one will talk to us. We tried to start conversations with everyone there, and were pretty much brushed off. I just feel like it's a shame that those of us who are called pastors feel like we're back in junior high and that the mentality is, "If I don't bring my own friend, I won't have anyone to talk to."
It's not just a "men vs. women" issue - because men are also excluded from the circle if they are too far away, or aren't called to the 'right' church, or went to the wrong college. I'm not sure who it is that keeps this circle going...I'm starting to think it's just plain silence. No one wants to rock the boat, and even if they did, who would they talk to? A DYD or a CE Director cannot possibly issue a statement to all youth pastors and children's pastors to "be nice to everyone, even those who do not fit the stereotypes."
Anyway...just wanted to clarify that it's not about vying for an important position in the district or anything - it's just the whole junior high mentality that you have to be "invited" to join the exclusive club, or to even be worthy of speaking to them.
Okay, I think I'm starting to understand where you are coming from with this last post...
I don't believe it's an issue of women in ministry but perhaps longevity? I realize you are a recent grad of NCBC and also newly credentialed. Have these other YP's been in the district a little longer? It is only natural that they are already in the "network". This is normal. Believe me, I've gone through it in each district I've been in. You are the new kid on the block whether man or woman and it takes time to get in. You are physically there, but not part of "the group" yet. It takes time. My first year here in FL, I went through the same thing. Now I have a huge network.
You have to realize, RELATIONSHIP IS EVERYTHING. Of course if these DYD's have kids from their youth group that are now pastors, they are in close relationships. Of course longer-tenured youth pastors are networked together. It's just the way it is. So, what do you do? You stay faithful and keep showing up. Keep introducing yourself to people. Take the initiative. Get to know people. Invite some of the sharper ones to speak at your children's or youth ministry. (That's how I get to know a lot of people - I invite them to come speak for me.)
One day if you are in that district very long - take my word for it - YOU will be the next "in group" if you stick with it, and you will be the one newcomers are looking to. I always try to keep in mind with new people to treat them like I wanted to be treated. It's easier said than done because quite honestly once you are "in" you can get so busy with your network of friends that you do not notice the newcomers, but...it's not on purpose, it's just that it's easy to get in your own world.
Try not to take it so hard, and just resolve to keep approaching people, meeting them and networking.
Deanna, that makes a lot of sense...our YP actually had a great time at a sectional YP's meeting, and they talked a lot about this issue. One of the guys there...an intern...mentioned that he had felt the same way at camp - excluded, shut out, whatever...
It was acknowledged that there will always be "hierarchies," but that those who have been "in" longer need to try to reach out and at least befriend the newbies...anyway, she came back to the church after her meeting beaming, saying, "God has given me the city!!" She was really nervous even going to this meeting - She picked up some cookies at Sam's Club and said, "When going into the lion's den, bring steak!" Turns out it was a great move, since the sectional rep's wife is about to have a baby and was having some major chocolate chip cookie cravings!!
Next on my list to conquer: getting the children's pastors in our section together. Children's pastors tend to be a more loving and nurturing bunch - there are fewer of us, and well, you sort of have to have an inclusive view of people in order to successfully minister to kids. But that attitude is still there a little bit...
BTW, I actually am not a recent college grad , and I didn't attend NCU, or any A/G college!! I graduated from Bethel (the Baptist college in St. Paul) in 1997, and finally answered God's call to be a children's pastor in 2003. Thankfully, the district liked what they saw on my transcripts (classes like "Theatre for Children and Youth," - go figure! God definitely had his hand in it all along!), and told me three more classes I needed to take through Berean in order to have my coursework completed to be eligible to be licensed.
But yes, I am a very recently licensed pastor with the A/G - although I've been ministering to kids, officially and unofficially, since I was about 12 - comes with the territory when one's mom is the church's CE director .
Okay, I'm thoroughly confused now. I thought for some reason that you work at NCU where you also attended, and that you had classes with Dan Rector. Okay, so how are you tied in with NCU and how do you know Rector? If none of this is the case then I'm having a real case of staying up too late at night eating pizza and dreaming???
I do work at NCU full time - I have worked there for about three years. One of the benefits to being an employee there is that we get one free class per semester if we want it. So...since I don't have an "official" children's ministry degree, I decided to supplement my education with a few CM classes, since I don't have to pay for them .
So that's how I know Big Dan - part of my job is organizing the missions trips that go out through the school, and the CM department takes one every other year, so he and I have gotten to know each other through that whole process, too!
It's kind of funny that I ended up working at NCU - I had a long list of reasons in high school why I would never attend college there - and then God told me about three years ago to quit my job and look for a new one. For some reason, I went to NCU's web site, found a job that I qualified for, and applied - and they were the only ones who called me back!
), or to bind together with other women and "make some sort of statement." That just makes us look like we are with the "N.O.W." organization or some kind of crazy, butchy (for lack of a better phrase - sorry if that offends any of you) women's libbers. 
