I have another little controversial tid bit I'd like to get your two cents worth about. First let me state we came from a nondenominational charismatic background. We have never been affiliated with a denomination just becuase it was a small town and the only denom. was a baptist. I think the town would have done great witha nice assembly of god church there but they didnt. But there were 3 or 4 small independent churches like we were. When we moved off for bible college and came back we moved to a city (out of the woods!) and that church had its roots in the upc (had only been out 3 years when we met them) But was never really abusive with the dress code. My point...I have always been spirit filled and never really understood until I was a teen that there were people who didnt understand what I was talking about.
Well, now when you go to church conferences you hear so much about seeker sensitive and being relevant to our culture (and we agree with all of that) but you have to be careful to not divorce yourself from the thing that makes you charimatic! I heard Steve Hill on TBN last night say this and it triggered this post. We have a generation that will know nothing of laying on of hands, of deliverance, of the infilling of the holy ghost, of speaking in other tongues and its becuse preachers are backing down on it in the pulpit. The former pastor here in this church we took over believes in spiritual things like we do BUT just believes it scares people too bad and doesnt promote it in the church. I think something is wrong with that picture! Could that be why it hasnt grown in ten years. I dont care how much we think people are scared of "spiritual" things, that is what they are hungry for. Not just more religion. Do any of you face the dilema of not compromising being full gospel and not being ashamed to say you are spirit filled and especially like us, we are in a predominately church of christ town --Harding UNiversity is here and the city's largest congregation if Church of CHrist (no offense to anyone who may be affiliated) but the baptist is JUST starting to get a leg up here and normally every other town I have ever seen they (the baptist) are the most influential church. SO a charismatic church has alot to offer yet alot that people may not understand. HOw are you encouraged by the assembly of god to present yourselves and not leave the fact that there is going to be a dividing line when it comes to those who seek more of God and those who have a form of godliness but deny the power of it? Dont you love that hillsong song that says that? Sunday I am praying for revival.Monday morning I cant even find my Bible! Its too awesome.
Anyway...my question...how do you guys keep your spiritual distinction among the ever growing demand to be "normal" and "seeker sensitive"?
Deanna would do a better job of answering this than me, I'm sure. But here are my 2 cents.
To be honest, I've never heard of "seeker sensitive." We are Pentecostal & proud of it. To my knowledge, it saddens district officials when our churches do not practice laying on of hands, preaching on the Holy Spirit, etc. Dh has been encouraged by our Presbyter to preach on the Holy Spirit & gifts, etc.
Dh is sensitive to newcomers in our congregation who have not experienced various gifts at work, such as a message in tongues & interpretation. A couple of weeks ago, there was a message in tongues & interpretation. After the message, dh took time to explain to the newcomers what had just happened, to educate them & prevent "scaring" them. But to "hide" the fact that we are Pentecostal, Spirit-filled, I pray we NEVER do that. My prayer is that we see more works of the Holy Spirit in our lives & churches.
And to just clarify, I dont feel the pressure to hide it. Dh said last night after the former pastor told him that he wishes he'd thought what to say. I told him it would not have done for me to be there. becuase I feel strongly about being pentecostal. It is what makes church worth "doing" if you understnad what I am saying. If we have no distinctive difference, if there is no spiritual difference in us and the church down the road, then what is the point anyway? Who needs another program? So I aim it at noone but we have heard alot about being "culturally relevant" and I think it can be done in our methods, but never in our message. I agree Trace, God forbid if we ever back off of the gift of God! My question is have any of you ever been pressured either by people or organizations (not your own, but others) to present yourselves a little different to get in an event or whateve. I know of some full gospel churches charasmatic whatever you want to call them that are "toning it down" to get to be involved in certain baptist events and that kind of scares me even though I am for unity as much as the next person. And I am in way throwing stones at any particular denom. it is the only example I can think of this morning.
I guess the answer for me is no. Where we are at now, we've only had one get together w/ any of the other churches in our VERY small town, & it was the baptist church. They called & invited us to come one Sunday night to hear a Christian comedian. But of course, that wasn't a typical worship service.
Where we used to live, we would get together w/ various churches 2 or 3 times a year. Being Pentecostal was never an issue. We were never asked to "tone it down." Of course in that church, it saddens me to say, we had very few "Pentecostal moments." The others were probably more excited than our congregation.
In our last church, there was a very good ministerial association. The pastors met monthly & ate breakfast. They were able to have regular fellowship w/ each other & get to know each other. This might have helped.
I am very interested to what others say about this. I might be in such small town "Bible belt" America that I am just clueless. Great topic as always Cassandra.
Just a real quick post- I think seeker sensitive forces you to compromise and dictate to the Holy Spirit what YOU will allow. I DO believe that we should be "seeker FRIENDLY..."
Perfectly said, PT. We are seeker friendly, but DEFINITELY not "seeker driven" as my dh says. You will not see transformation in people's lives being seeker driven.
We definitely explain everything (you have to in my opinion or it's just rude). Anything that happens in our service we explain, for those who have never been exposed to it before.
But what does the bible say? Tongues are a sign for the unbeliever.
This is a great topic. I have also heard a good amount of discussion on this issue. I think that the emphasis is often placed on the wrong thing in most of what I have heard from those outside of this board. I think that you ladies are very on target as usual. PT you are so good with words.
I think that if people devoted as much time and energy focusing on being Holy-Spirit sensitive as they do focusing on being seeker sensitive, then they would not being trying to devise ways to get people to come to their churches. I am sure that we can all testify to the fact that the Holy Spirit is the one who has given us all of the great ideas that have been truly successful in reaching the lost. We cannot figure out ways to do this on our own, nor should we just copy what the church across town is doing.
I think that people really do want to see the power of God being manifested. We pastor a Baptist church, and we will not "tone down" for anyone. I grew up Pentecostal (Church of God in Christ), and just prior to meeting me, my husband was introduced to Pentecostalism (I think that is a word?). It really changed his life. We believe in the gifts of the Spirit, laying on of hands, the whole nine yards. Sadly to say some don't. We typically only fellowship with those churches on a very limited basis and it is understood that we are who we are. If I have to choose between fellowshipping with other Baptists or experiencing the power of God, it is no contest. I have heard some of our Baptist aquaintences say, "It doesn't take all that." In my mind I'm thinking, "You are right, it takes all that and them some if you are going to get delivered." Of course I can't say that, but I have had some interesting discussions with people about this.
I may have detoured a little, but I believe that we cannot change what we do based up on what the world, or worldly Christians are doing. The Spirit will help us to stay relevant if we follow Him. That my 2 (maybe 3) cents.
I think everything you said is great! all of it! I dont understand this phenon...cant spell it but you know what I mean. Why are the missionary baptist open to spiritual things while so many other kinds of baptists explain it right out their door? I told a baptist friend one time (he is pentecostal now) and my dad is baptist now and used to be pentecostal (go figure) that if the "baptist" doctrine is correct and tongues isa gift that isnt for everyone jsut as everyone has different gifts, surely out of hundreds of people in their congregation ONE person would have that gift! Surely the holy spirit isnt sending all the ones with the "gift" of tongues to one kind of church and all the others to the baptist church. Sorry the math and law of averages and ratios even disputes that theory yet that is what I have been expained by baptist ministers and pastors. People are so hungry for the spirit and we must not focus on programs and things to the point of programming him right out. You are so right ladyT. The other soap box my dh is often on is while we do want to build small groups and we want good, honest "normal" joe and sally, we cannot neglect our ministry to the downcast and hurting simply becuase they may not can contribut financially to the church at first. So he is letting this type of ministry be some of the first our church does. When mentioning this subject to the former pastor one day the fp said "you need to figure out who you want to reach" and kind of laughed. My dh said (go baby!) I want em all. and did not laugh. SO last night I listened to him pour out his heart and I came up with him a logo and slpgan and all that good stuff (that is the kind of stuff I am gifting in) and it made him feel so good. (this was before the lights went out! lol) SOrry. I am always cracking some kind of joke. I love how we can sound off and be encouraged.
How very true. I would love to get a couple of doctors & lawyers in our church. An accountant would be nice, as well as a mechanic... But we haven't been instructed to reach certain groups of people, we've been instructed to win the lost. Well, actually, the Bible does tell us who to reach. In fact, I read the Scripture in church on Sunday & Monday... Matthew 25 talks about separating the sheep from the goats. The sheep fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, visited those in prison, etc... The goats didn't. The sheep were rewarded. The goats received eternal punishment. Yes, it is wise to figure out who you want to reach -- those that the Lord has called us to minister. There are going to be richer churches than others. I think that is great. To whom much is given, much will be expected.
I've always had a vision of a "Have A Need?" Ministry. I envision opening up the church one night a week, with the idea "Have A Need..." Is something wrong w/ your car? We have a mechanic here who can at least look at it & tell you what is wrong & possibly fix it. Having problem w/ your taxes? We have an accountant who can help. Having problem w/ the social system? We have someone here who can help. Legal troubles? Here's a lawyer who can offer some advice. That's why I would love to see a doctor, lawyer, accountant, etc. come to our church. Who knows? Maybe one day this vision will be a reality.
Cassandra: God is going to bless your ministry. You & your husband have the right heart. I can't wait to hear how lives are being changed through you both.
I finally had time to speak to dh yesterday about being "seeker sensitive." Apparently, I'm at home w/ the kids too much... He was shocked that I hadn't heard the term.
He said this was definitely something they discussed in school & at some of the conferences, though they did not necessarily use the term. He said most of the discussion that he had heard was about making your main service (Sunday A.M.) aimed to the seeker. You wouldn't necessarily want to have your sermon on the Gifts of the Spirit -- to save the teaching for your Sunday pm service, Wednesday night, etc. He did say that some believe the gifts shouldn't be in use in these services. Of course, I was floored. This whole time I thought the gifts were given at God's timing...
Anyway, he did say that a lot of the conference speakers, etc, are professors that look at things differently. It is his experience that many teach the extreme in hopes that people will meet them halfway. If you spoke to them in privately, they really are not as extreme as they come across. Interesting.
To me, the "seeker sensitive" format is like telling God when He can and can't move! We've had people from all walks of life visit our church...we had a lesbian couple visit one Sunday, because one of them had attended an A/G church as a kid for about three weeks, and that was the extent of her church background. She and her partner attended our church once and said that they had never felt more loved and more accepted by any church. We aren't "seeker sensitive" in the slightest - our pastor didn't water down the message, the gifts were completely moving in the service, and our pastor's wife - who is an extremely attractive woman - went out of her way to welcome them and love them. Sad to say, many Christian men and women who are attractive assume that someone who is homosexual is going to be attracted to them, and sort of hold them at arm's length...
The next week, we found out that they had moved apart from each other because they decided that their relationship was wrong. They both attended our first Alpha course, and at least one of them gave her heart to Jesus and is now signed up to help run a game for our festival next week (She voluntarily came to me and said she'd like to help...lest you think I'm one of those "Hey! She just accepted Christ last week - let's put her to work!" kind of pastors, lol!!
Oh, yeah - and her sister-in-law also came to Jesus because she invited her to Alpha as well!
All this happened because we WEREN'T seeker sensitive and allowed the Holy Spirit to move and convict, and because our PW listened to His prompting and welcomed these ladies the same way she would welcome anyone!!
Missed you this last week. I was getting a little worried about you & have been praying for you.
Thank you for that awesome testimony! Dh & I have lesbian friends that we continue to pray for. Some people were shocked to hear that we had friends who were gay. Of course, they had gay friends who were shocked to hear that they had "conservative Christian" friends, who were pastors! When you let the love of Christ shine through you, amazing things can happen! The Holy Spirit will be the One to draw them in.
Seeker sensitive to me just means that we as Christians are receptive and aware of (sensitive ) to those who are searching for truth (seeker). Right after the movie "the Passions of the Christ " came out, The ministerial association where we were at decided to do a community wide service. My husband was the president at the time and he took the idea to the other pastors. There were 24 churches in the association. Included in the services were all churches denom and non-denom. (we are Southern Baptist) the services were planned as a seeker sensitive service. This is just to mean that it was held in the school auditorium so that no one church was getting credit. We wanted people to see you could hear about God outside of church walls. We had soloists, interpretive dance, testimonies and preaching .My husband was the speaker because He was the one whom God gave the vision to. The service went very well and my dh spoke on the salvation and blood of Christ. No watered down service here. All parts of the service was to allow seekers of truth to see what we all as Christians are about. Before hand,we had a spirit filled prayer time. Did anyone speak in tongues, No. but neither were they asked not too. I guess those who do just didn't. Also during the service they were hands raised ,amens and hellelujahs spoken and no one was asked to "tone it down'.we wanted God to work through each representative of his church there. By the way ,I grew up independant baptist with a love for hand raising- hallelujah worship. I found out several years ago that the music we used came from music ministers in the church of God down the road so I guess you could say I"m a Bapticostal because I love the baptists and my spirit filled roots. All Baptists are not negative. I wsh that more Baptists weren't afraid of the Holy Spirit and that we all could just work together for the greater good- reaching people for the kingdom of Christ. Was any one saved? yes. there was a family there whom the pastor from the non denom church had been working with and they prayed with him afterwords. They told him they just felt the love of Jesus flowing and wanted more. Praise God. Was the servicea success because it was seeker sensitive No, It was a success because Jesus was there. Seeker sensitive is not a bad thing unless we make it bad . I think that we all should be seeker sensitive just being sure that we are Holy spirit led. Love Ralinda
