Please say a special prayer for us tomorrow night. Our presbyter is coming tomorrow night to the church to have a "town hall meeting" with us. (Since we are not a sovereign church, we do not have a board (which can be good) and our church people cannot vote.) Anyway, the topic for the meeting tomorrow is for the pastor to get an increase in pay (please, Lord, make this happen) & membership. You just never know what is going to happen w/ the C.A.'s in the church.
Thanks for your prayers. I'll let you know what happens.
Could you give me a little more info on how your church works as a district-operated church? This is something that our pastor is prayerfully considering as an option for our church - because our church has proven incapable of governing itself...
What are the pros and cons of this type of set-up?
P.S. Jesus, be with everyone in this meeting - silence all antagonists, and let your will be done! Let all words be spoken be Yours, and let Your peace descend upon that church. In your name, amen!!
I'll see what I can do about answering your question about the dependent vs sovereign church. (Everyone know this is for the A/G.)
First, know that I have the seen good, the bad, & the ugly about being a dependent church. We were at a dependent church before this one (in another district). In a dependent church, the presbyter & usually the sectional officers are the "church board." We had very little support at the other church & we were miserable. We felt "thrown to the wolves."
When we left, the other church, we were "never going back to a dependent church." Here, things are different. Please know that the way things are being done w/ us is basically the first time it has been done like this in our section & our district (I think).
Both dh & our presbyter make sure they are in contact weekly.
Basically, our presbyter & our church selected us for the church. The church did not get to vote officially for us. In fact, the church does not get to vote at all. (People in the church do not like this.) Dh has set up an advisory counsel. Dh chose who would be on there. (Unfortunately he picked C.A. before everything happened.) We must get "permission" to make big purchases & cannot get a loan w/o approval. It's nice not having a board, but we are definitely working toward sovereignty. Right now, dh has a lot of control, which is good. Hopefully, he won't lose this. The good thing is that dh basically gets to draw up the constitution & has some control of what goes in there (i.e. some churches vote on their pastor yearly. This won't be in there.)
What is the bad? Our presbyter told our congregation that if they had any complaints they could call him. So, the c.a. does. He "tattles" on whatever he doesn't like, & doesn't necessarily tell the entire truth (LIES) & tries to manipulate. The good thing is that our Presbyter doesn't buy into his mess & totally supports us.
I would really pray about going to dependent status, but I do know that the district can come in & help w/ problems w/o going dependent.
If you have any other specific questions I didn't answer, let me know.
It definitely depends on the district, that's for sure!
I know pastors in other states who have left the A/G and gone independent because their district gave them absolutely no support...
Our superintendent served as a pastor for years in an extremely tough, "antagonistic" area (the section I grew up in, actually - he was our presbyter when I was a kid, before he became the superintendent!!), so he bends over backwards to help churches in those situations. He personally traveled and assisted my home church's pastoral search committee a couple of years back, because it had been so long since they'd had to elect a pastor, and it was a completely new board (with an extreme CA vying for control!) - and this wasn't even the sectional presbyter...this was the district superintendent!! This man really sets the tone as far as how the district feels about supporting their pastors!
Again, this is just an idea that our SP is kicking around...he knows that there will be a battle, and he's trying to pick his battles wisely...but the truth is, this woman is not getting any better. She is playing with fire, too - because apparently, she prayed during their meeting on Sunday and asked the Holy Spirit forgiveness for grieving Him...then by Tuesday, she was right back to her nasty business! YIKES!! Does she realize how dangerous it is to play that game? Does she know the story of Ananias and Sapphira? They were struck DEAD for lying to the Holy Spirit!!
Anyway, thanks for the info, Trace...did you have your meeting yet? How did it go?
We are what some would call "independant" but we are a part of a network which has overseers. The overseers counsel, pray for, give wisdom, and support us, etc. However, we are apostolic in function.
We do not have a church board within the local house. We do not vote in/out pastors or on anything else. However, we are accountable to our overseers (our spiritual parents) and our brothers/sisters in the network. We will have elders (we are not ready for the appointing of such) and deacons (servants in the house- we wil also appoint these later) but their functions will not be to "lord over" the apostolic leadership of the house. After much prayer, insight, and guidance from our overseers, we have implemented our church structure from the book, "The New Testament Church." It is a WEALTH of information, wisdom and revelation. It really lays out biblical foundations when it comes to church structure. We had our entire core read it and we walked through it when we first started our plant. It is awesome!
We have nothing against denominations- we've had bad and good expereinces with them- however we felt God leading us in the direction we are going in. We are not conventional in our approach or structure, however we are firm believers in order. We don't have "members," we have co-signers, and we don't have volunteers functioning in ministry, we have ministers functioning in ministry. We lead, disciples, train and release.
Here is a diagram of sorts on how we plan to function in the next six months to a year:
God- Overseers- DH and I-Elders-Pastoral Ministry Team-Co-signers
It basically works as a chain of command. If a co-signer has an issue with a ministry, they would see the ministry team member directly related to that ministry, the pastoral team member will attempt to take care of it, but in the event they cannot, they (ministry team member) would go to the elder who oversees that particular area, the elder will try to handles, but in the case they cannot, they (elder) will go to DH and/or myself. We will handle it then or seek wisdom/guidance from our overseers if necessary. This is just one example. And I know at first glance it looks like it makes DH and I unapproachable, but quite the contrary, it frees us up SO much to minister to our co-signers, elders, and team. It makes us available!
As some of you have mentioned, and as we have experienced, the running to the presbyter, elders, or board to "tattle" can be such a pain. I praise God that we don't have this issue because if a co-signer ran to our overseers with tattling, the overseers would turn them right back around and send them back to "do it right..." They won't even entertain CA's and believe in cutting out roots like that. We're about the KINGDOM, none of us have time for silly religious mindsets that are purposely created to keep the Kingdom of God from advancing! Whoo- I'll get off the pulpit...
And believe me, we are held accountable. Our overseers make sure we are living a life worthy of the call and they keep us in check. They know our weaknesses, strengths and needs. However, they don't hold them over our heads, instead they encourage, exhort and cheer us on.
I am not saying we have the best structure, and I am not saying that we are perfect, but it works well for us and we are seeing God move mightily. I just thought I'd add how we function to the mix!
As an A/G church - if it is a "problem" church, you definitely would benefit from being district affiliated, versus soverign. Sometimes that's the only way a pastor can survive. We always welcomed the district being our board because we were district team players and always had a great relationship with them. In our previous church the best thing was for it to be dist. affiliated because of the problems within it. In our current situation they were ready for soverign status and had been for some time. It is still a very pastor-run church and was set up the right way so we have had no problems. Still, we have a great relationship with our district should there ever be any problem but I do not anticipate it with the way things are set up here.
In our previous situation I would have never wanted to be anything but district affiliated. I highly recommend it in your situation, as long as you have a great relationship with the district and they are supportive.
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