I've got a couple of questions for you. My mother, who is also a pastor's wife, gave me 2 pieces of advice, and I don't think I agree with her. What about you all?
1. My husband likes to be called "Pastor Ben." He just doesn't like "Pastor Peters" or "Bro. Peters." Me -- I'm Tracy, not Sis. Peters. Mom says that the congregation would respect us more & honor the spiritual authority of the pastor if we go by our last name & not so be informal by using our first.
2. She said that we should not get too close to anyone in the church, because they will be the ones to stab us in the back (like what we are going through now.) We believe that ministering is about building relationships. Jesus put most of his energy into the 12 & taught them how to minister.
Question #1: I've always called my pastors by their first name (ex. Pastor Joe). I've been licensed for about a month, so people in my church are just getting used to calling me Pastor Leanne - I'm still forgetting to call myself that, which probably doesn't help, lol. It probably depends on where you are geographically. Here in the north, we are a lot more casual and it comes across stuffy to the congregation if a pastor insists on being called by their last name. But I know that there are some areas of the south (spec. Oklahoma and Texas) where that is the expected practice.
Question #2: You've got to be careful who you get intimately close to, no matter what your profession. Sounds like your mom has had some bad experiences! I have, too - I've been stabbed in the back by lots of friends. But one thing I am learning is that just because friends have stabbed me in the back, it doesn't mean that everyone is out to do the same thing. I had a prophetic word spoken over me about a month ago that, "To everything there is a season. Trying to stay in winter when God is moving me into spring will hinder His plan for my life." Instantly, I knew what she was talking about...I have been so afraid to really get close to my best friend because I've been afraid of what might happen. It's a little different, because we're both on our church's pastoral staff - but don't discount a wonderful friendship because the person happens to be a member of your church - they're not all out to get you . Usually, if you think about it really hard, all of your problems in a ministry can be narrowed down to one person or family. And is that one person worth giving up your calling, your ministry, other potential friends and (as Deanna says!) armor bearers?
(Can you tell this is something God's dealt with a lot concerning me? )
Your mother is saying this as a voice of experience and to some extent, she is absolutely correct, you will minimize some problems by doing this. However there is no "wrong" answer here, it's really a preference. And, if you deal with problems as a result you will have to be prepared.
I do agree with her that if you go by "Pastor Peters" then if people shorten it or change it, it would probably go to "Pastor Ben" (which is what you want anyway.) The shortened version of that will either be "Pastor", which is fine as well, or...the ultimate shortened version...Ben. If your dh doesn't care that he is called Ben, it's all a moot point. If he cares, this is what I would suggest. First, I never call my dh by his first name in public. I always refer to him as Pastor. From the pulpit, I say, "Pastor is coming now to speak to you about..." Or, "Will you please welcome our pastor as he comes to share God's word with you." Or if someone asks me a question that he needs to answer for them, I say, "You'll have to ask Pastor about that." I think most veteran PW's have just trained themselves to say "pastor" while in public. My dh does the same for me, btw. This just sets the example and trains people on how you are to be addressed. Also, we are careful to sign all of our correspondence that way, even in casual e-mails. Some people are going to call him Ben no matter what. Don't worry about it, just keep setting the example.
2) As far as closeness with the people.........I am close to a point w/church people. I say, let them into your living room but not your bedroom. What do I mean by that? (It's not a sexual comment, by the way.) What I mean is, you allow them intimacy in your life TO A POINT. I guess what I will do just for your info is, just break down my own "guidelines" for my life (just what I do, not what I'm saying everybody should - it's what you feel led to do.)
* I do loads of social things w/people. You are right, you can't impact people without being in relationship with them. Our leaders, I am closer to than others. I don't have the same closeness w/everyone, but I do make a point to be very warm, affectionate and welcoming to all our people. Nothing is worse than a standoffish, stuffy pw!
* With our ladies who are more in leadership that I have more of a relationship with, we do things together...I go to lunch with some, shopping, to the beach, movies, and all kinds of stuff. We have fun, laugh, talk about life issues, but I do not share my problems with them. (I do allow them to share theirs...I just steer clear of baring my soul on mine. I discuss my problems with my pw friends.)
* In preaching, teaching and sharing I am very honest about past struggles I have had and victories won. However I don't share current things. I never say, "this week my dh and I had a big fight," Or... "I'm so depressed." (For those things i call a pw friend.) However our people see Larry and I are really real because we do share past struggles we have overcome in our marriage and in our life. I believe people need to see you as a confident leader who is living a victorious life. They don't need to think you are perfect - in fact that would not be good - they wouldn't feel they could relate. They need to know you've been through some things, but they want to know you are "through it" if that makes sense. People want someone to lead them who is on the other side of the mountain already, if that makes sense. When I step on the platform at church or even just walk in the doors, nobody knows any burdens I'm carrying. I'm there to lift them up, not vice versa.
* I think you can have genuine close relationships with people in the church but you can draw a boundary line that you do not say or do things that would diminish respect for the pastoral office. I do not become closer with anyone in the church who seems to have issue with this. If I sense they push the envelope (e.g., by calling me "Deanna" all the time, or by speaking to me in any overly familiar and disrespectful way if I had made a decision or am leading in some way they don't agree with...I steer clear of getting closer to those folks and make sure to pull the reins a little tighter.) Those I am closer to seem to have a good understanding that to have that closeness, the line of respect has to be there or I need to pull back so the fact that they are closer to me is not a detriment.
I think it takes a special person who can develop a closer relationship with the pastor or pw and not take advantage of that relationship by thinking they don't have to show as much respect. Or, that they realize just because you are "friends" doesn't mean you are always going to make a church decision in their favor. Nor can they speak loosely to you especially in public .
I really could not become close with those who didn't have the utmost pastoral respect, and I guess that is what it comes down to.
You can have friends to some degree in the church but you have to guard it very carefully and be on the lookout for any warning signs.
Also - please develop some very close pw friendships. You are developing some here on line, but you also need at least one or two in person. I have developed this every place we've ever gone. This past year I just found my 2 close friends here and oh how wonderful it has been!!!!!You need a coffee buddy to share your joys and sorrows with. Start cultivating that right away if you don't have it. It's not the first person you find, you have to look around for somebody to really click with. Pray about it and the Lord will set up an appointment for you to meet them!
Of course I am a good Black Baptist so I am fundamentally against the first name concept... My husband is Pastor Brunswick, Reverend Brunswick, Doctor Brunswick, or Pastor... The shortest name that he is called is Rev. The one time that someone called him by his first name my members quickly corrected them. I am referred to as First Lady Brunswick, Lady Brunswick, and my favorite Mrs. Pastor... Very few people have been given clearance to call me by my first name because of the whole respect concept... For us to be so young we are very old school in our thought process.
Much like the other ladies on the board I am close to my members but to my own level of comfort.... I do things with my members like shopping, sightseeing, etc. But the reality for me is this - I am called to spiritually mother them and to share with them the love of God with them... I am not called to be their best friend...
As pastoring partners there are always people around us but we can be the loneliest people... I have found that my closest friends do not live close to me which helps because then I can share with them those things I can not share with others...
They tell me that experience is the best teacher... Your mother-in-law sounds experienced.
I agree with Flow on the aspect of being called to spiritually mother the congregation. And I share this analogy...
I often say spiritual mothering is not so different from natural mothering. I have a very close relationship with my kids, HOWEVER -- I am always the Mom, never one of their buddies. I even "hang out" with my kids, however -- they always know who's in charge. It is never a same level relationship. That doesn't mean I'm "better" than them, it simply means I have a different role, as instituted by God.
I do everything with my three children from baking cookies, to shopping, to watching a movie together as we did tonight. However, at no time whatsoever were they not aware that I'm the Mom and they are the child. And, it will be that way when they are 40 years old...even though they will be mature and grown, they will still not walk in the room and say, "Hey Deanna, what's up?" Even when they are mid-life, I will still be "Mom" and there will be some line of respect there. (Or let's hope so! ha! ha!)
Because you keep the line of respect and guard against being too loose in the way you are addressed does not mean you do not greatly love your people nor do anything with them, or even just "hang out" - but you must take care all the time to make sure the lines are very clearly drawn on just what the roles are.
Some people handle this better than others. For instance, there are some people in the church who could not handle "hanging out" with me and not crossing the boundaries. With these folks, I would have them to my home for a fellowship with a larger group, and keep it to something more formalized. Perhaps that is all they could handle. If I invited them over by themselves and we hung out, swam in the pool or watched a movie, the next thing you know they would be saying, "Hey Deanna, pass the chips," or they might expect me to get into some areas of discussion that I am not comfortable with, with a church member. They would push the envelope. So with those type of people, I simply leave it at fellowship in a larger group and keep it more formal.
My assistant Lindsay is a perfect example of someone who can handle it. Lindsay and I can be sitting in a hot tub having a discussion or we can sit at Panera and drink latte or enjoy the opening of a movie together. But she never crosses the line, EVER. And if I need to call her in my office about something concerning her job and correct her, she's not like, "uh, wait a minute, we were just sitting in a hot tub together...I thought you were just my friend." No, she knows it doesn't work that way. The second that would happen she has to know it would all be over. So she doesn't even do that to any degree. She has utmost respect. And because of that, I am free to have a great working relationship with her where I lead as I am called to -- and I am also free to have some fun with her outside the realm of our work day. It's so nice because if she were not able to handle it and I just had to cut it off, we would miss out on some really good times! I have quite a few people here who can handle the same type of relationship and in that I am really blessed because it helps me to be able to do some social things and have fun.
But Flow is right, sometimes you still feel lonely because there are things you cannot, simply cannot share with anyone in the church. I like talking in person (e-mail and phone is good to a point), so I make it a practice to get together with friends on a regular basis and just share about the kinds of issues you can't discuss with church people. My dh and I spent a whole evening the other night just sitting in Barnes and Noble talking with a pastor friend for hours about stuff none of us can share with others. We left so refreshed. Next month we are planning a sleepover with both our families. We don't want to have to end the conversation so we said, hey we'll just bring all our kids together and pile in with sleeping bags while we all talk til' we get hoarse! Sometimes that's what you need. It's my lifeblood (next to my relationship with the Lord.)
Larry and I are part of a group of pastors right now who get together and share and pray on this level. One of our friends told us that it's the greatest thing and the most important commitment he's made next to getting saved and married. I am so convinced that we all need this, but most ministers don't make time for it.
Love you all...okay, I'm heading to bed - finally -
These are very good questions. I think question 2 especially can be very critical to the effectiveness of your ministry. I pretty much agree with what has been said before, which I am sure is no surprise.
1. Although I grew up with a strict tradition of calling my Pastor only by his last name, and I not against people calling my husband Pastor George. Most, but not all of our members my husband Pastor or Rev. Hicks and call me Sis. and Lady Hicks. Some of the newer members call both of us Pastor Hicks. Either way is fine with me. I do not ever call my husband by his first name in public, and he does the same for me. It was hard for the first couple of months of our marriage, but after that, you just get into the habit.
I think that there is something to what Flow said. I think that in African American churches, we tend to call our Pastors by thier title and last names. I have noticed that at the ministries that I have been exposed to, that white churches are more likely to call their Pastors by their title and first names. I think that it also depends on what part of the country (or world) you live in. I think that we teach people how to treat us. The thing to remember is that we should set the tone for the church as far as how we and our pastoral staff should be addressed and respected.
2. I think that your mother has gained some wisdom from her experiences on this one. If you allow people to get so close to you that the lines between pastor/pw and friend are blurred, it will often come back to bite you. Those who are most trustworthy usually respect the office and you enough that it is not likely to become an issue.
I also often use the example that the church is very similar to the natural family. You cannot be all things to all people. Your children need parents and they also need friends. You cannot be both. So it is with your spiritual children. God has placed you there to spiritually parent your church members. You can develop a strong relationship with them, but as a mother, not a buddy or best friend. In the long run, most people will love you and thank you for it.
Developing relationships with other couples who are in ministry is so important. It helps you to release some of the things that may cause you unneccesary stress if we have to keep it to ourselves, and it also provides an opportunity for accountability.
Thank you all for your words of wisdom. You all have so much more experience than I do & I trust what you have to say.
I am going to do my best to refer to Ben as Pastor. I know that I have caught him referring to himself as Ben & have "gotten on" to him.
The church we are in now (West FL District - one of the most conservative A/G districts) split a year ago February. The pastor left the A/G to build his own church & took most of the people w/ him. We came in August last year. Gong in, we knew that there were 3 men/families who were seeking control. Two of the families left soon after we arrived. The man we are having problems w/ now is the person who called the district to let them know of the situation. He credits himself w/ saving the church (which some credit is due) and now feels the church (& pastor) should do whatever HE feels should be done. In past churches, he was always the pastor's "right hand man."
When we came to the church, he & his family invited us over a lot. Since his wife was treasurer & books were at her house (we are changing this now), we went over there a lot. (This actually has caused friction b/w my dh & myself.) Anyway, we began to notice his controlling behavior & we began to pull away consciously in January. I guess he realized that he didn't have the influence that he thought he deserved/wanted & decided to wage war. It does hurt that people we were close to would go behind our backs & cause problems in such a big way. I guess all we can do is pray -- and we are doing a lot of that right now.
Dh has very good support from our presbyter & another pastor. He goes & plays basketball w/ his pastor friend once a week. I don't have quite the same relationship w/ others, but I am looking & praying for a good friend(s) outside the church.
Thank you all for your advice. I am definitely going to take it to heart.
That man and his wife are at a serious crossroads. Either they will adapt to your taking the reins and they will grow, or you can expect them to leave. I know it is not easy. You are probably dealing with a tither - another reason I'm sure he credits himself with "saving the church at a critical hour"...
You just have to remember, God has plenty of money & people and he'll be the one to save the church.
On another note, while we are talking about the black/white church - I am in a situation where I get the whole gamut, because I am in a very, very, very multicultural church -- and I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are pastoring 20 nations (so far!!!) Some of the blacks refer to me as the first lady. Most of the hispanics refer to me as "Pastora". (which is their word for female pastor) Most of the whites call me Pastor Deanna. Some of the whites will "slip" as I call it and call me Deanna. Interestingly enough as you mention -- I really do not have any black people who slip. It's their culture - you are absolutely right! (And I think that's great!) So.........what does that tell us? It's just white people who are loose and disrespectful?? Ha! Ha! As far as the other nations represented, I have not noticed any specific patterns. Those from India tend to be extremely respectful as well...my husband loves having them in any leadership position because they tend to have extreme love & respect in general. The kids are just incredible. I have never met anyone more respectful.
It is such a joy pastoring a multi cultural church. It was always our dream, now we're living it!
I'm the new girl on the block -or forum but I am having hard time finding close friends in the church. In fact - I really don't have any at all. Everytime I build a relationship- it goes south because the husband (usually) decides to leave the church. I currently have a lady who prays for us regularly -and I feel a kinship with her - but I've kept it guarded and not let her see into the real me. In fact, no one at church, aside from my family, knows the "real" me. I entered the workforce after a 16 year absence to begin teaching middle school. I've made better - warmer friends here than at the church. But I feel safer at school than church. I feel I am just me at school and not the PW. Point - it is hard if not not impossible to find a true friend in the church - but then again - ours is 30-40 people on a good day.
. Usually, if you think about it really hard, all of your problems in a ministry can be narrowed down to one person or family. And is that one person worth giving up your calling, your ministry, other potential friends and (as Deanna says!) armor bearers?
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