Okay, I'll try not to make this a vent. Somehow I don't think I'll be successful in that! I just want to put something on the table to you gals that I'm dealing with this week and ask for your comments, suggestions, and insight.
We all have people in the church that are those of low investment in the church yet they have high expectations. This week I'm dealing with such a situation that is getting under my skin. I just need to vent but I also want to know...how do you all respond to things like this?
There is a family that comes to our church and the wife is not involved AT ALL. She is gifted, talented, etc. etc. etc. (has no small kids in the home, or special situations btw that would prevent her from serving.) She used to teach a kids class at the church. She taught for a few years, I don't know, perhaps two or three at max, but then resigned saying she was burned out. How in God's name somebody can just be burned out teaching one class (and that's it) I don't know. I could teach one class with both hands tied behind my back. (And so could you all) I mean, hello. That's basically like breathing. There is nothing to it. I want to say, "Burned out? You have noooooooooooooo concept of what burned out is." But anyway...that little "burned out" class was the only ministry she did in the church. Since then she has not done anything, I mean nada, and uses the excuse that she wants to stay this way (doing nothing but sitting on a pew) so as not to get "burned out" again. Some time ago I cautioned her that God doesn't have anybody on the shelf long term - it's God's will that every member be a minister. She seemed uncomfortable with my admonition but never really said anything. It was just sort of left that way. We have been here for almost 3 years now, and she basically has not been involved for that whole time. She quit teaching, I believe right before we came. Anyway...
She has recently had some difficult personal situations to deal with. One of our staff pastors did contact her and pray with her about it. But there was really no big deal made about it at the church or anything of that nature. However it was ministered to by a member of our staff. Well, now evidently this woman is very upset and has issues with the fact that we have not done more than we have. She has commented that only this one staff pastor said/did anything during this time. *(Meanwhile, I'm thinking, "isn't that enough?" I am wondering if she expected every staff member to drop everything and run to her or what? It just isn't practical.) One of our pastors told me he wonders if she expected me to tell all the ladies of the church (like in some type of public announcement) and have them "rally around" her. Quite truthfully I would not even have found that appropriate since all of the issues she is dealing with are completely outside the church in her extended family and have nothing to do with our church or the people in it. The only time I make real "announcements" of that nature have to do with those who are members and well known by the entire congregation who are very ill or in tragic situations themselves. (Such as, we have one person in leadership who has been struggling with cancer. Everybody knows about it and I have made several public announcements asking for prayer and for people to help in practical ways with various needs.) If I announced every things in everybody's life in a church our size, we'd be doing nothing BUT that all the time. There has to be a limit. Anyway........
She is evidently upset about it and hasn't been to church for a while. We have called/sent cards and just said, "we miss you" type thing, but nothing beyond that. Usually when people like this give me the 1-2 about how upset they are, I say, "Wow, I'm really sorry we didn't meet your expectations." Then I leave it at that. Because, I am sorry that evidently we didn't meet THEIR expectations, but the fact is, I don't agree with their expectations. I don't believe their expectations are necessarily God's. It think they are out of order. I'm sorry they are hurt in other words, but not so sorry that I am going to meet the expectations...does that make sense? In other words, if i don't believe God has called me to respond in such and such a way, I don't, even if I feel pressure. Know what I mean?
Personally it really irritates me when these type of people want to give zilch to the church in the way of their time or effort, but when anything happens in their life they expect the church to "jump" and be there in full force for them. It was as if this woman thinks our whole staff or leadership should have somehow bent over backwards for her in this, but I'm wondering why when she contributes absolutely zilch to this church? (Note, when I say contribute, I'm not saying financially...to me contributing to a church is most importantly about the way you serve.)
These kinds of things make me very tired....I have to really dig deep to find any compassion for this kind of stuff at all, and quite frankly when I do have to deal with situations like this, I have to put on a total face about it. (because in my heart I don't "feel it", I'm just doing it out of trying to smooth the situation over.) What do you do when things like this come up and how do you not let them just completely frost your flakes?
To be quite honest, I think people like that should just get over themselves. (I must have PMS today or something! I am horrible). haha
I must give you PW gals credit, just as I do my dh. I would have quit or cussed someone out already. Compassion and sympathy only go so far. Then you want to just be honest with them. Like, I was liking how you said your dh handles the financial thing with the Biblical example of the widows. How many people has that ticked off? Plenty probably. But like I told my dh the other day, we (the church leaders as a whole) have misunderstood what not offending someone means. We equate that with not hurting their feelings. But Paul hurt many feelings in his day. But it was becuase he cared for their soul more than their feelings. How many do you think liked it when he wrote turn people over to satan so he could destroy their bodies to the saving of their soul? Not many I grant you. But he cared more about truth. That is my passion as well. I cannot tolerate error. Not ignorance..that is changable. I mean blatant error. And to be flat honest, in some things the church has turned from truth in order to be seeker approved.
The best thing for people sometimes is a good dose of truth. And when it is scripture it is nondebatable. And scripturally, the pastor has ministers to take care of duties so they can study and take care of the spiritual matters. Waiting tables (the nuts and bolts part of runnign a church) is still to be done by competent, spiritual person. So a person is wrong to think they are being "jipped" because they get an associate instead of the pastor. We have people like that in our church and my pastor gives into to it most of the time. But I think he is wrong to. But like he told dh the other day, we dont see things the same way as he does because he carried the burden of pastor and we dont to that degree. But according to the bible, people are wrong to feel that way. They work poor pastors to death. ANd it angers me. We are so petted in the church of america today. Like someone said people cry if you get the milk too hot. No wonder God cant have the pastor bring forth meat. Sad but true.
I can t offer what I do, becuase I dont deal with that first hand. But I do emphathise with you. And agree that you cant meet everyone's expectations. You must handle everything scripturally best you can and trust God to deal with their hearts. But if you compromise to keep them happy over one thing it will just be another down the road. And their is no life in being a people pleaser. Paul became whatever it took to reach someone (to a jew he became a jew ect, ect...) but it was to REACH them with the gospel. Once they were reached, he spoke the truth in love and expected them to grow into it. We tend to take that scripture and use it to justify our people pleasing behavior. How many pastors are stuck in that kind of trap? Probably unnumerable.
If I were a pastor I would tell people to get over it. Good thing I dont get the microphone then huh? We need to grow up in God. That was my soapbox.
I appreciate your thoughts Cassandra. I agree completely.
You know in our case, I believe it even goes beyond Larry or I, or the other pastors doing something in this case -- I think she even thought others in the church should have risen to the occasion as well. In particular, I think she expected something from "the ladies of the church." You know, IMHO, that's also a "small church mentality" and it's why some churches don't grow any bigger. They think everybody is going to know everything, and jump to every need.
We really do not have many of these cases here in FL, we are so blessed. I hesitated to even vent about it, because truthfully I face it here so little because pettiness is to such a minimum in our church. We have something incredibly special here. I have faced this only a few times in 2 and 1/2 years and maybe that's why things like this "stand out" to me so much and make me mad!
One thing that really upsets me is when people say, "Only one person from the church called," or... "only three people called or sent me a card." Okay........so what consists of the "right amount" of people to call or send a card. I think some people are bottomless pits for lack of a better phrase. Nothing will ever be "enough" for them. And those same people are normally takers, takers, takers. Are they there to rise to someone else's occasion? No. Besides that, if someone (anyone) called, I would think they would say, "PRAISE GOD, SOMEONE CALLED ME!" Not, "only one person called." It shows you just how much people look at the glass half empty instead of half full, doesn't it?
Hmmm- this sounds to me like a classic "Consumer" mentality. Craig and I have taught a series about Consumers and Producers. We are striving to encourage our folks to be producer minded instead of constant consumers... A lot of people come into the church looking to "consume"- from the Pastors, leadership, etc... everything is about them and they contribute nothing... BUT God desires that we be producers in the kingdom! That is why a KINGDOM understanding is SO important. In life today it is SO easy to get caught up in our comings, goings and LIFE in general! It really opened the eyes of most of our people- now I won't say ALL because truly- some think, "you just don't understand.." to which I am thinking, "Oh, yes I do- you are a consumer- NOT a producer!"
It is AMAZING to me... one of my BIGGEST pet peeves is when people try to consume all of my time with trivial LIFE issues that won't change anyway because they DON'T LISTEN to my counsel ANYWAY! UGH! We had a lady come to the church for awhile and you know we are a new church so when you start gathering people you are so glad people are coming- BUT my radar was up on this one- she was one of those "super spiritual" people who was a few fries short of being a Happy Meal if you know what I mean... or in other words- a "spiritual granola bar"- fruity and nutty.... anyway, she was ALWAYS in the prayer line- even if we were having a planning meeting or outreach she was like, "Pastor Tara, you and Pastor need to lay hands on me," EVERY TIME we saw her. She'd call our house and leave WEIRD "Thus saith God" messages... She NEVER contributed ANYTHING to our outreaches, services, etc... she was a CONSUMER- tried to consume all of our time, energy, and efforts. The incredible thing is she didn't even work- forty-three years old- living on Social Security for a fall she had at a Benny Hinn crusade in the parking lot or something (hmmmmm...) yet she seemed fine- walked three miles a day but couldn't work- yet she was adament about being "called to the ministry"- and I was like, "Darlin', ministry is SO much more than preaching in the pulpit... MINISTRY is spelled W-O-R-K!"
Shortly after our consumer/producer series she actually moved away- and it was really like a HUGE weight being lifted....
I didn't mean to get on my soapbox- but if our churches were primarily PRODUCER minded- IMAGINE what we could accomplish for the kingdom of God! Don't get me wrong- I am NOT saying we can never RECEIVE- we all need that- my beef is when we consume more than we produce...
Maybe it's just my tired, grouchy mood being reflected here, but if I were God, there'd be a whole lot more smiting going on!!
I am so tired of the attitude of people who come to church, "do their time," and then say they're SO tired or busy because they subbed for a Sunday School class once. Deanna, you are so right - how can they possibly be burnt out? I had a lady step in for a couple of months to organize the Wednesday night meals and then said, "You know, I'm so burnt out on this. I can't do it anymore." I smiled through gritted teeth, blessed her, and then got in the car and exploded...SHE'S busy and burnt out? I'm sitting here working 40 hours a week ON TOP of my ministry. I barely get any time alone with my husband, and when we do get that time, we're so exhausted, we collapse into a tired puppy-pile on the couch. No vacations to speak of in the past couple of years. I try to do it all myself because no one will really commit, except the Sunday School teachers who have been doing it for 30 years, who are fabulous at what they do, but don't have any desire to expand their horizons and dare to knock on their neighbor's door and even invite a kid or a family to church. They feel that it's my job to grow the children's ministry. Well, great. Any parent who allows their 4 or 5 year old to just get into a car with a stranger who says they're bringing them to a church that they know nothing about should probably have Social Services called on them!! In other words, I can't go out and collect a bunch of kids. It's the job of the congregation to bring in the families. And to reach out to the families of the kids who already come alone.
Which is why I borrowed an idea from a testimonial by Jim Wideman. He tried to get the adults in the church involved in ministry and when they wouldn't follow him, he led those who would follow: the 5th and 6th graders. When he started kids' ministry teams, his kids' church grew from 7 (yes, seven! About where I'm at right now!) to about 300 eventually. So I'm forming a new ministry team with kids in grades 5 and up who want to commit to meeting once a week to learn children's ministry skills, be a discipleship group, and all kinds of other stuff. I figure, I've got a degree in theatre. I've been doing puppetry since I was 12. DH is fabulous with illusion and music. Between the two of us, we can raise up an army of kids to do what the adults won't do.
Can you tell I'm gearing up to preach on Sunday? I'm not a southerner, but I can still get my point across . My sermon title is "Everyone Knows a Kid," and it's about the importance of reaching out to the children in our lives.
Tara - if you have the notes on your consumer/producer message, please e-mail them to me if you don't mind. I would love to use that material with your permission. Great idea.
Puppetmaster, you are so right. Go girl! Sounds like a great message for Sunday.
It seems that this is a common problem in all of our churches. At least we know we are not alone. Some churches it is worse than others, I do know that. Tampa is a piece of cake compared to my previous church. Let me rephrase that, it's a piece of triple layer cake, buttercream icing and sprinkles on top in comparison!!! But still, no church is devoid of this problem. And it's so frustrating.
Do you think this is something people do just because of their fallen nature...or are they 'taught' this by previous generations that the church is there for this purpose, or WHAT?
DH and I refer to it as the "country club" mentality. That is, church should be a happy little club for them to show up and visit with all their friends, have some coffee and be inspired (and God forbid the pastor preach a convicting sermon that ruffles feathers!), and go home - not thinking at all about the people who work their tails off to give them their little club.
And like you, Deanna, I have it so much better. In my old church, no one wanted to do anything for the kids, and they wouldn't really let me do anything, either. In fact, I was there working overtime trying to keep a kids' program going after the children's pastor resigned, and when DH and I tried to talk to the leadership about our calling and vision for reaching kids, we were pretty much blown off. Not to mention lambasted by the associate pastor for asking a question about where in the Bible a specific Sunday morning teaching (totally incorrect, BTW!) was found. This church now has virtually no children's ministry now. We heard that they were planning something "special" for the kids Easter Sunday, and DH said, "Yeah, probably the new Veggie Tales video and an Easter egg hunt!"
I should count my blessings that I am in a church where the leadership is not only NOT spiritually abusive, but are my very best friends in the world (Well, except Ms. Board Member, who is on my daily list of "people to remember to take to the cross and forgive ).
I keep saying that someday, I'll work in a church where I have the support of the leadership AND the parents. And then I wake up and realize that there is no such thing as utopia!!
I think a great deal of it is fallen nature. The early church dealt with it (people not working, being busybodies, not real widows wanting assistance) Paul would tell them, look I am setting an example. I worked for my own bread. I made my way. And this is how we are going to handle the widows, the real widows. So they had all the financial moochers then too. Not that needs arent genuine. But it just isnt for the church to meet them all. But is does seem like a more acceptable way of thought today. Our whole culture is a microwave fast food drive thru generation that expects people to wait on us and do it our way. We were in a busy resturaunt one day and the waitresses were BUSY! One oerson at out table was complaining becuase they needed more sweet tea. ANd they were being kind of derogative and saying they werent going to leave a tip yada yada yada. Finally one of the leaders spoke up and said "did you have to get up and fix your own tea?" The person answered no. He said "then give the girl a break. She's doing all she can do. Its not like you had to lift a finger for this meal. Have some patience." He made a valid point. We think it is all about us and if someone doesnt meet our expectations we will take our business else where. I think leaders have let people slide with mentalities so long that it is getting worse and worse. Maybe not more in number but those that are that way are REALLY bad. With each church they go to and leave they become harder and harder. And they become more right in their own eyes. When all along they needed to suck it up and do the right thing. But now they cant see the right thing. And usually these kind of people are not in healthy relationships becuase when ever I have had a need $ wise, I have had friends to help me without me having to go to the pastor. GOd would move on someone in my circle to help us out and that is how it is supposed to work. SPIRIT led not demanding it from the leaders. Did I make my point? I think I forgot where I was headed with that but anyhoo...
You all are so right about this. It's clear as a bell in scripture but somehow todays people just don't get it...just like in most churches they don't get that the church is not run as a democracy. It's a theocracy. It's like John Bevere says...it's so hard for the American church to do things any other way because of how our government is set up. We are a democratic society but the church is not. Fortunately, our church here understands all that real well and in that regard we came into a great situation. But previously, oh Lord, could I tell you stories!
It just seems that in issues of how the church is run in most cases, benevolence, etc. today's American church is just out to lunch! You are right Cassandra...if the church is supposed to be doing what these people expect, what do we do with those teachings of Paul?
Whoa! This is a hot topic. It really makes me annoyed when people don't do anything but come to church and fill a spot on a pew and then they want the wholoe church to come and see about them and as Deanna said "rally around them when something happens. It makes no sense to me how people can expect the church or the "ladies" or any other group can even know about what is going on in their lives. When people are not involved in anything, they don't develop relationships with people in the church to the point that people would notice that something is not going right with them. The fact that a staff pastor contacted them should be enough considering the situation.
I remember when my dh was the Youth Pastor at his home church, there were times when it would be announced in church that or Pastor would mention in the office to the staff that "Sis Soandso is very ill", and I would think to myself "Who is that?" Usually it was a member who we had not seen in ages, but when they got sick, or something happened, they would call the church and expect us to come running. I am not at all saying that we should care, because we ought to be concerned and prayerful for all our members, but it is almost funny what people expect. You know that if my husband was a staff pastor and we did not even know who the person was, they obviously were in involved in anything in the church!
I agree completely with you Deanna, that we cannot meet everyone's expectations. That is not what the church is about. We are to try to live up to what God expects from us. How can people have the nerve to expect more from us than God does?
WOW! What a subject. Several things that I noticed in all the posts are 4 issues mentioned . 1) I ve done my time 2) I'm burned out 3) The church doesn't meet my expectations 4) No one cares or no one called me
When I look at all these things it comes down to 2 things 1) a selfish nature 2) a sinful nature
A selfish nature says "what can you do for me" and they expect the leaders to babysit them. People expected the same thing of Jesus but he just couldn't solve all their problems and heal them LIKE THEY WANTED IT DONE . Isn't it awesome that Jesus knows our frustrations.
a sinful nature keeps people from doing the work of God because their human nature is "striving with the spirit".Either they are not saved or they are so carnal that the Spirit can't work within them. So many times ,I see people stop working because they are "burnt out or whatever" and it's because they are under conviction and God says " you aren't working for me until we get it straightened out."
i guess it goes back to a couple of things ... ministry is messy because people are messy and if it weren't for people, ministry would be easy.
I hope this encourages you. God has shown himself so faithful over the last week for me that I'm on a high.
Yes, it is encouraging. It seems that this is a hot topic and everybody is completely in sync with how we feel about it.
We were talking about it as a staff today and delved further into the issue and we all agreed -- it is frustrating to experience this. Our visitation pastor commented, "it's so interesting what people assume." They just assume so much or different things depending on their background or what they think is right, not really what is biblical.
I looked further beneath the surface in the situation I mentioned and discovered that not only did our visitation pastor minister to the need, but my husband called the person, I called the person, and tonight I found out from our care ministry director that a card was sent to the person. Apparently though one of our staffers said that the person in question was upset about the "timing" - felt people should have responded sooner...
You know it just comes down to...some things are never "enough" for people and you will never please them. You're right, Ralinda, it gets messy! We just have to do what we feel is right, and stand by that.
Our youth pastor brought up today that he finds this no different than all the people (parents) who complain about nursery and stuff like that, or youth group as far as they want more things for their kids, but they do not volunteer to help out with these ministries -- they just expect things to be provided, as Tara said - the consumer mentality.
I just thought it may become to the point that churches have to produce handbooks like schools, daycares, businesses for employess that give the visiting policies, nursery policies, financial help policies ect...to clear up all misconceptions. That would be a sad day but it might would set alot of things straight and get everyone on the same page. I am not a pastor so that may produce problems I am unaware of, but you know I dont assume the daycare will come pick up my kids if I cant bring them so why should I assume the church sunday school department would. See what I mean? It may be a good idea after all. Church policy handbook. Visit the church. Get a handshake and a handbook. Could happen.
quote: Originally posted by: cassandra I dont assume the daycare will come pick up my kids if I cant bring them so why should I assume the church sunday school department would.
Don't even get me started on what everyone assumes should be the job of the children's ministries department!! Everything from disciplining kids, to bringing in kids, to running the entire program singlehandedly. Which, like I said, is why I am starting a kids' ministry team. I have a few kids and teenagers who are really excited about it - if the adults in the church won't follow, I'll lead the ones who will!!
As far as rides go, yeah, it's a bit irritating to have kids call the church and then whoever picks up the phone come up to me our the youth pastor and saying, "You need to go pick up so-and-so for church." Huh? One of these days I'm going to look back and say, "Well, since we and our spouses have Sunday School classes to teach, why don't YOU go pick up so-and-so for church?" Better yet, why don't THEY take the Sunday School classes so that the youth pastor and children's pastor are free to go (gasp!) pray before the service?!?!?
It's nice to know that my church isn't some odd little anomaly out in the middle of nowhere where the people can be rather, um, impossible! Perhaps next week when I'm done PMSing, and I've preached my sermon on Sunday and the Holy Spirit has convicted the whole lot of them, I'll have a better story to tell .
I agree, I think that would be wonderful. I am not sure if I would give it to people upon their first visit -- perhaps make them available in the info center for people and then definitely give it to them if they apply for membership. Sort of a "things you should know" book. But you know the greatest problems I find are not from new people. Usually it's people who have been with the church forever and expect a certain standard of whatever. And for those people you would have to give them a book and I guess say, "here's the way we do things around here now." Yes, it's bound to ruffle some feathers, but then again these things do have to be communicated. Right now they are unfortunately communicated when somebody is upset and a staff person informs them of "the way it is."
I think something like that would be a great idea for membership classes...that's sort of the time when people are most open to hearing about church policies and procedures.
I just want to put something on the table to you gals that I'm dealing with this week and ask for your comments, suggestions, and insight.
. My sermon title is "Everyone Knows a Kid," and it's about the importance of reaching out to the children in our lives.
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