What is your defintion of "feminist"? Do you consider yourself one? To start....I consider myself one in the old sense of the word.....like Susan B. Anthony...not in the modern sense (abortion/gay rights).......and I think the church IS and DOES take things out of context and still oppresses women..... does this topic ever come up between you and your husband? Do you get accused by others (or even him) about being a "feminist" as though its wrong to be prowoman?! What are your thoughts.....
I think the word "feminist" has a lot of baggage in the Christian community - which is why people are reluctant to use it.
Personally? I do consider myself to be a feminist - like you, in the sense that men and women are equal...believing that does NOT have to mean "lesbian," or "pro choice" or "pagan/wiccan."
My husband believes along the same lines that I do, so there's no conflict there - but in my church (at least among some), "feminist" and "liberal" are some of the worst insults that you could sling at someone.
But yes, I believe in equal pay for equal work; that God calls BOTH men and women to the ministry; that Biblical submission is mutual submission, love and respect; and that being a full time, stay at home mom/wife is a noble profession, and is a valid and awesome choice, but it is not THE only way to be a godly woman.
If that's being a feminist, I wear it proudly :o).
I recently blogged on this in more detail at http://www.musingsnstuff.blogspot.com.
alrighty! a fellow blogger! saved your address into my favorites. I agree with everything you said. My husband agrees as well..but...sometimes misunderstands what I am saying and thinks I am getting a little too liberal... But it takes confident men to open minded...and as I am sure you have encountered....there just arent that many truly open minded.....why do people (myself included) get scared to think sometimes...its religion isnt it? (sorry..thinking out loud again... :)
An interesting thought just occurred to me... in a fairly recent conversation by husband was told by another pastor that he (the pastor, not my husband) was pro-choice because God is pro-choice (concerning abortion) because "God gives us a choice..."
This same pastor has serious issues with women in leadership capacities that would make them equal to a man or overseeing men. He believes women should first and foremost serve men, carry all housekeeping, preparation and childcare even if they do work... they do not have a choice because that is the way God dictated it in the Word (although he is taking MUCH out of context)...
Funny how we have a "choice" on abortion... even though the Bible clearly states "Thou shalt not kill" (don't see a choice there...) and also says that He "formed us in our mother's womb" ... yet on every other issue that would suppress women... we must follow his (the pastor's) interpretation of the Word... without a choice...
As I was reading some of this thread.. this popped into my head... I find it interesting...
A lot to think about.... I have a blog too..not called Equal Time..but none the less, I take a stand for what I know GOd's word states about women in ministry, family, etc.
There is wisdom in this day and age in not using the word "feminist" due to the stigmatism placed on it by Christian circles because of modern-day feminists who do act like they "hate" men, depise motherhood or look down on ones whom choose to stay at home with small children, and promote gay rights as well as abortion. You can save yourself a lot of grief by wording things carefully! Nevertheless, there is a place for biblical equality Gen. 1:26-28, Gal 3:28, Eph 5:21, Romans 12:10...Proverbs 31. I do appreciate the Assemblies of God position paper on this topic as well as their perspectives on a woman's role. I also think Lee Grady's book 10 Lies the church tells women is a great resource.
However, I don't get into debates regarding this issue. From experience, I have found that people who want to argue over this already have their mind made up and they want you to come around to their way of thinking. I do not surround myself with male chauvanists. It's unhealthy for me. We are careful to cover this subject with each prospective deacon/staff member as well. We inform them of AG's view of women but more importantly we believe the whole counsel scripture and for those genuinely seeking to learn about it with a teachable spirit, we point them to scriptures.
Faulty applications of them are frequently seen but we do our best to prevent it in the leadership of the church. Some husbands wave the submit sign becoming domineering, dictatorial, and even abusive. They use the Bible as leaverage for their authority to make ALL decisions, expenditures without consultation with their wives. This should be a last resort not the "norm". Likewise, wives should not be so controlling either. I've seen too many pushy women running the show...there should be a balance of mutual submission. This takes the Lord's help!
My personal opinion: I think women with an extroverted personality get falsely accused of being controlling just based on their outgoing PA. I think the "Lion" PA (Choleric) has to be extra careful not to be too pushy especially when in the presence of more quiet individuals. Mutual submission takes work! Sometimes we have to be quiet, not so quick to voice our opinions and not have an opinion on everything. Practice being submissive on little things that you disagree with! When it comes to the Big Stuff, ask the Lord what to do. The Bible clearly teaches mutual submission, does it not?
My dh is very respectful of women. However, his Dad is very anti-women. Thank God, we moved away for ministry! Nevertheless, my father-in-law thinks women are silly and don't know what they are talking about. He has tried to ignore my presence in his son's life every visit to our families of origin. This has been very hurtful. I am grateful my dh is nothing like his father. I believe it would have led to a divorce! The man is not a Christian and he's ethnic. I have found ethnic families have very strong views on a woman's place (and they are not my view:)
But what is even more hurtful is when we are dealing with Christians and they use the Bible to hurt women. That is nothing but friendly fire. It's a tool of the enemy to bring division and to disable at least 1/2 of God's army.
The other day I was listening to a new Christian radio station. A little short blurb from some woman's ministry came on about being "feminine" (not a "feminist") in the work place. A single mom & new believer supposedly had written in about wanting to be more Godlike & feminine at work.
This woman was encouraged to not be so vocal at work and to look for opportunities to ask men questions at work, to stroke a man's ego, & to basically find a man to be submissive to at work. I nearly had a cow.
I am all for being submissive to my husband, but to go find a man at work to purposefully be submissive to who's not mt boss... you've got to be kidding me!!!
This is a false teaching that is catching on as a result of some Christian books that have been taken to an extreme.
I have heard of this quite a bit before, where because of some teachings about respect, women are encouraged to have a different level of respect for men than they do women and to treat the men in their workplace differently...to talk to them differently and to let them lead, and stroke their ego by doing various things, not talk so much, defer to them, and put them in higher regard than others.
It's maddening to me that some women and even young women are latching on to this teaching and running with it. It's especially tragic to think that they are treating the men with greater deference and preferential treatment in the workplace simply because they are men.
I have read teachings taken to an extreme (which again, come out of popular Christian books today) where women are encouraged to list all the men in their life (work, church, etc.) and focus on giving them greater respect, praying for them more, defering to them in all things, yada yada.
It's amazing how false teachings like this catch on. And much of it is under the guise of, "this is how men are wired...they have such fragile egos...we need to stroke them," etc. and telling women if they want to have greater relationships with the men in their life they need to do this. Sad!!!!!!! (If men are THAT weak, should they even have the job in the first place?) IMHO, if that's the case they don't need more respect or to be stroked, they need COUNSELING to get out of the bondage of their low self worth.
Revisiting this: If you have some practical "helps" in this area I am all ears (well eyes;o) Recent times I've needed help , there's been no response. But if you have time please respond:
I've been in the ministry with dh about 20 years. We've be Lead Pastors here about 15 years. As SP's we hire staff pastors and usually they are right out of Bible college. One difficult issue is that "people" automatically give them respect (no experience, new to everything) and seem to imply that I should defer to them. There are one's who seem to put me in competition either with the staff pastors we hired or their wives. I've been credentialed, have my own office, and I am paid part-time. Nevertheless, how can I get certain ones to stop treating me like I should be "submitting to these staff pastors" we hire?? Any suggestions.
I've dealt with more than my share of catty women who do not want to defer to me or acknowledge that I am a minister. They even have gone as far as not calling me a pastor and then call the staff pastors wives "pastor"... really catty stuff. And this seems to also affect the attitude of the staff pastor's wives. They act like I should be under their husband. What are your thoughts?
1. Does your husband refer to you as "Pastor ----", 2. Regardless if you have your own office, does your husband refer people to you? Does he refer the hired staff to you?
Those areas need to be addressed first and readdressed if your husband is not refering people to you or the staff to you. If He sees you as a copastor he needs to treat you as on. Now I am saying these things with no idea if he is. So if he is then maybe it is something that he himself needs to address to the staff during a meeting with or without you there. He should also be going to bat for you with the board or leadership your church has.
I am sure there are others here that can possible give some insight into this. The boards have been quiet. I will mention it to a few and get them to chime in. If you could answer these question maybe I can come up with some better advice for you. Definitely praying for you. I understand everything you are dealin with. I am dealing with it myself and we have only been lead pastors here for 3 years. Are the "women" or people in general in the older generation? Such as 65+ ? In our situation the church is in general an older church so they tend to think of let's say, Pastor's Appreciating Month as we appreciate my husband but for get that I lead 4 different ministries within the church and he is honored and I am pushed to the side. NOT saying I want to be honored by them but would appreciate a bit of gratitude for what I do in the ministry. The biggest change has come from my husband refering to me as Pastor --- and stressing a lot that we are a team and that I am just as important to the ministry as he is. That has helped but the older generation come from a time where women were not to be in leadership. It's been a huge change for our church. That is just what I deal with. I will be praying that God will give me some better advice for you. Blessings.
FYI: Responses are always given on these message boards. Sometimes the boards are a little quieter than usual but I have never known of someone not receiving a response at all through using the boards.
Crackedopen4him, you are absolutely correct. The key is the husband. I always say that about the co-pastorate...the key is how the husband presents the team.
It's not a good idea for a co-pastor can't push herself by insisting that anyone call her pastor. This usually backfires and will cause you to spin your wheels on this issue for years further down the road. Demanding that people call you pastor will only create more strife and tension on staff.
I have absolutely NO problem in my church with this issue. I'm convinced a big part of that is, we just "do it" we don't announce it or discuss it. My husband refers to me in all forms of church communications as Pastor Deanna. If he is talking to a staffer about something and needs to refer them to me he says, "You'll have to talk to Pastor Deanna about that." If he is mentioning something from the pulpit he says, "I was talking to Pastor Deanna the other day about that..." but he does not get up and say, "It's important that you people call my wife Pastor Deanna," nor do I do that. I find an announcement is not needed...you just "live it." I have heard it said before, "if you have to announce that you are the leader, you're probably not."
We had a staff member years ago (2 in fact) that did not respect my leadership, but they had issues with my husband too. One thing he did to try and get the point across to them that they would have to defer to me and be subject to my authority was to send them to me regarding things and make them have to go through me. For instance, they might ask him about permission to have a youth event. He would not give them an answer on it and say, "You'll have to discuss that with Pastor Deanna and get her permission." This would provide opportunities to get the point across. Neither of them could handle that very well and ended up resigning however that was best. This just provided a catalyst for it to happen sooner rather than later.
At the end of the day, I find that titles are not most important -- it's function. If you are FUNCTIONING as the true co-pastor of the church, your position will be readily evident no matter what anyone calls you. Also the more newcomers you have the more things change. They can readily see, it is you who is doing the work, many times working circles around other staffers, and this fact is not lost on anyone. Because generally people look to the person as the leader that they see leading and working the most. Your presence is really what solidifies it for them.
I have a few people in my church who call me Deanna but they are the same individuals who would call my husband Larry. I also find they are not necessarily disrespectful people -- it is just their culture. But with everyone including those people, no matter what they call me I'm the undisputed co-pasor of the church and that is what's the issue, not the title.
