Just wondering if you deal with the issue in your church of trying to control Mom bashing, as I call it. I have come to realize this is a major concern among women. We have touched on it some in other posts with LW, Cassandra and myself, but this being a recurring theme among the women I serve...I'd like to know how you personally deal with it.
By Mom bashing, I mean women bashing other women (overtly or not so overtly) about their choice to stay home, not stay home, work FT, work PT, etc. You know, just as with the schooling issue, I really believe this is an issue of, "WHAT HAS GOD TOLD YOU PERSONALLY?" I think the problem among many women is...just as they are resolute that God has told EVERYBODY the same thing as far as school choice (and they are just not obeying it?) they also feel God has told all Moms the same thing about their work/career choices and that if all Moms aren't falling in line, they must be dis-obeying God.
Add to this, when any kid has a "problem" (young or old) women can be side-swiped by comments like "well, I really never dealt with that because I stayed home with my children."
I have seen ladies in tears over this...hurt by other ladies comments. One dear, dear, precious woman in my congregation who has kids in the home and also works a pretty high powered corporate job was extremely hurt when another lady in the church came up to her and said, "Martha (not her real name)...I'm really praying that you'll be able to quit your job." Poor Martha looked back at her with tears in her eyes very confused like, "Why are you praying that I would quit my job? I love my job." It seemed that some rather militant ladies were praying for Martha because after all she must be out of God's will. Add to that, if Martha's kids have ANY problems (dear God, if they would ever get a demerit at school, or even sass back one time...it must be because Martha has that God-forsaken job of hers...)
Another lady in the church spoke up recently and said something to the effect of, "Well, single Moms "have" to work, and you know a lot of married Moms have to work but they absolutely hate it, and cry on their beds at night because they HAVE to do it. And we should realize that and be sensitive to it." I replied, "yes, you are right about that, but I don't believe women have to be crying on their beds at night and absolutely hating it before God approves of their having a job outside the home. Some women have a calling to do the jobs outside the home that they do in addition to caring for their families." (The same lady was absolutely not in agreement with that interjection that I made...)
It just seems to me that women are intent on tearing each other apart over this issue and I hate it. My rally cry is, "Hey guys, support one another in whatever decision you've made. Allow God to be God in other's lives. Give people opportunity to hear from God...to obey His voice and His direction for their lives. Don't be so dogmatic or judgmental."
Overall we have such a loving church. I mean, it's so incredibly loving and caring and giving. We really don't have mean-spirited people. But it just bothers me sometimes when I see women (of either camp) taking on this attitude or even giving a hint of disrespect or distain for others personal choices and decisions.
You know, I often tell my ladies -- the Word says in Zephaniah that God is up in heaven rejoicing over us, singing over us, dancing over us. He's having a wild party over us, and many times what do we do? We tear one another down. It's a very sad thing.
I have to be honest, it's something I have little tolerance for. If I sense one of my ladies are bashing, I immediately bring the smack down on it. I guess I'm just completely non-tolerant of judgmentalism. I've seen the damage it has done in other situations and I just don't want it to take my dear ladies captive.
Do you deal with this issue with any of your group and if so, what are some angles that you come from in addressing it and bringing unity?
In my last church, the ladies couldn't understand how I had been married for four WHOLE years and had not started having kids yet. My DH and I have said from the beginning that we would probably start having kids around 30. That has never changed. We're 28 now. Still no kids, and the people at our current church are fine with that!
One person came up to my husband and asked, "So do you two work with children because you're unable to have them yourselves?" WHAT??!!? What if that had been true? Another lady came up to me on Mother's Day and said, "Happy Mother's Day, by faith!" As if the only reason I was not a mother was because I couldn't be one, not because I had chosen not to become one yet!
This was the church that would have ladies' get-togethers that consisted of learning how to make quilts, homemade soap, or butter. Which is cool for people who are into that kind of thing...I'm not! I'd get blank stares when I tried to explain that sewing is my idea of torture, not a fun relaxing afternoon with friends.
The same was true with the men - my husband is an incredibly talented actor/director/singer, and doesn't really like sports (except for hockey - hey, we're from northern MN originally. It's in his blood, lol!). But he was looked down on as not being "manly" enough. He has, since then, made friends with some amazing guys (one in particular) who are rugged "man's men" but accept him as he is and don't doubt his masculinity just because he'd rather listen to showtunes than country music. And I've made friends with women who actually enjoy watching action and suspense movies with me...
You should have known better than to ask my opinion! i deal with it alot. And it goes both ways. You have working moms throwing little slurs at mom who are "at home" who maybe cook really well or sew or something else creative. They'll say "well, I never have time for stuff like that cause I have to work". Most of the sahm's I know are never home! They are volunteering in the schools and church or helping their husbands in their businesses. They keep the same hours as working moms. So I don't understand the comments I get sometimes to. Now that I am a wahm I get DIFFRENT slurs. It really boils down to this. THIS is the root. You ready??
P-R-I-D-E.
Yep. We get all high in mighty in our "hearing" from God. And we assume anyone who does diffrently hasn't heard from God like we have. And it is spiritual pride. Tied together with false humility...from BOTH camps. "I sacrifice to be at home with my kids" to " I never have time for myself becusae I work" Both are full of arrogance and false humility. I'll be honest. I have been judgemental of friend who work before. But I had to realize that they will answer to God for them and I am doing good to mind MY business and househod with out needing to mind theirs. It is kind of is freeing to not be the judge. I am glad I am not God!
Humilty would pray for someone but never say anything hurtful like you mentioned. Scripture is always the best way to combat anything. And I don't believe the Proverbs 31 lady was tied to her house. She had female servants and family who more than like ly helped her with her kids while she was out buying fields and sewing garments and working willingly with her hands and all. In my opinion if the Bible advocates anything it is industriousness and not idleness and gossip which is a sign someone has too much time on their hands. Paul said that is why young widows should have homes and stuff is so they would saty out of such trouble. Maybe it is a sign that those talking nedd to be doing more in their homes and they would not have so much time to gossip and cut people.
The better job I try to do with my kids, home and business (which is my order) I find I have less and less time for yaya! My time matters and I don't have enough of it to be sitting and worring that MArtha is working instead of being at home.
I have a friend who partly wants to be home. And partly enjoys her career. She has talked to me about it. And she keeps working FULL time (when she'd rather only work part time) because her husband requires it. I told her you keep working and being submissive. THAT is what pleases God and he'll work everything out in the end. Turns out her husband has taken a different shift to help out more with the new baby and she is getting to find a happy balance after all. Women have to factor in the husband factor too. You don't know what someone's husband may be expecting and they don't need your pressure too.
And about schooling...if we are to be totally Biblically accurate...we should send the little boys to private school and home school the girls (or give them no education at all) because that is how they did it. When interpreting scripture like that you have to consider they had a culture like we do and not everything that the culture in old or new testament times did was not actually a commandment of God but was a CULTURAL issue. I mean consider women speaking and wearing literal head coverings? It was a cultural thing.
I love something I have seen here lately. Jesus rebuked the pharisees becuase they "teach AS doctrine the commandments of men." It is happening today as well. And he said "you put heavy yokes on mens backs but will not help them carry them". His point was if you are going to put all these requirements on people..fine. But you better help them do them. If I am going to bash a working mom, I better be willing to put my money where my mouth is and help her with what it would take to come home. If I am going to bash a sahm mom who SEEMS to have more time than money, I better be willing to show some dough and help her. But do we do that? NO! And that is what made Jesus angry then and he cannot be pleased with it today.
It is all a trick of the enemy to get us prideful, devisive and full of strife. The lack of unity is exactly what he is after.
And a little side note...
Before I started this full time job at home, I never understood working moms like I do now. It is hard to get it all done. And we should quit stereotyping, judging and start helping each other. It is hard to combat this becuase it is done in such manipulative and falsely humble ways. It is hard to call people on it. Women need each other too much to be so mean. God help us.
Love what you just said -- women need each each other too much to be so mean. THAT IS SO TRUE.
Excellent points. Thanks for the biblical insight on the heavy yokes on men's backs w/out helping them to carry. That's excellent. I'm going to add that to my teaching...it's perfect.
Puppetmaster, I think it's so funny (yet sad) that people make those comments to you. Interesting the things people comment on that are so personal and absolutely none of their business.
This is something I deal with in my ministry, and in my life, and in my church.
I have seen evil gossip that really divides us! It hurts to see my sisters tearing into eachother. I have seen very Godly families with and without a working Mom!!!!
My own feelings are that each of us are called by God. But , and please do not beat me up, I am begging you, I feel God calls fewer ladies away from the home than many ladies like to admit. What I mean by this is, well... A for instance I can give you is a young Mom at our church who had just, I mean just given early delivery to twins right before a missions trip through Appalachia. She still kept saying that God called her to go, and please help her with the money. We really did not feel this was correct. Not with 3 week old twins whom she planned to leave at home! She did not get to go, and later came to realize that she was being selfish in her quest to leave home for this trip. She knew this was not a true call from God.
Another for instance....My own sister was a working Mom. But it was a terrible situation. We practically raised my nephews for her because she was so into her career. And she wanted to work, she did not need to. Now, one son is dead, the other has no sense of family, and hardly calls or even visits. She is very lonely now. It was sad to see her family self-destruct over those years. All kinds of serious family problems. It was very sad. If you asked her why she worked, it was always about her own self actualization, and wanting material things. At least she was honest about that. This attitude can be a problem, putting yourself above the needs of your DH and kids.( I know the ladies on this board are not this way, but I do see this attitude when I minister to young moms...materialism) That's why I mentioned this example.
Now, on the flip side, I have seen Godly families do extremely well with Mom outside the home. I mean everything runs very smoothly, and all are very happy. And this, ladies can only be because God has called this woman to work outside the home and serve others in this way. I think if ladies can work, look after kids and DH, without sacrificing the running of the home, then we have no reason to think this is bad.I mean, if things are really this smooth for them, it can only be due to God's blessing, right? But if a lady seems in constant conflict, and things are not going well, she and DH are always fighting and tired,then maybe, she is called to be at home. Maybe the best counsel we can give her is to try and leave the workplace. But ladies, one must go in LOVE, NOT IN JUDGEMENT!( I know we would never do this, but I have seen this in my church) And we need to be honest, the current economy is not as family friendly as it should be! Many of us have HAD to work to help our husband keep afloat without killing himself!
We are called to be "a helper fit for him", are we not? Why should we let him struggle when we can help a little? But, we should take good care to not let our own pride get in the way of the family, our first priority. If we are called to leave the workplace, we must do so! I was very angry for a year after being injured on the job, and forced to come home. I am a nurse who was working in the county Alzhiemer's unit, and very happy! I was ministering to people and thier families there. I was so happy! Then, I was severely beaten by a patient, and left with permanent nerve damage in my hand and arm. A one-armed nurse is quite useless, and I felt useless! It was hard, but I learned I am not useless. I have been able , as a nurse, to speak with alot more authority to young women about certain things. I actually had a Bill signed last year by the President! If I had not listened to God, and come home, I would not have had time to get those things done. But, I also have a freind who, while in the workplace, was able to minister to a LOST young girl, and she kept her from making a terrible mistake! This was God's doing! She was there with his blessing! We need to keep Satan from using this to divide us!
I too, do not tolerate bashing or judging another. We just have to be sure that we are where God calls us at this time. And we need to answer when he changes direction. I was terrified of public speaking, but I had to , God called me. I was terrified of being a 36 year old nursing student, but I did it! Most of all,we need to support and edify those answering his call, WHATEVER IT MAY BE!!!!!! I love you all!! LW
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
I am sorry to hear of that "have any kids of your own" line! It makes me very angry!! A couple who work in our youth dept. had that same line thrown at them for years....they just adopted a girl from China this year.
It is such a hurtful thing for couples who have been blessed, to question the motives of those who have no kids yet. I just have no tolerance for this one!! Love you! lw
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
I learned the hard way about my own moral vanity, and I had to learn it in public, in front of millions of people on a talk show early in my career! I am very careful now, at least i try to be, about being morally superior and critical of others. Love, LW
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
I agree with you LW - some do things for the wrong reasons. It's true. Some are out of the home and don't need to be, and some are in the home and shouldn't be. But we have to walk in love whatever the case and let God be the one to speak to them, while we continue to love one another as sisters in the Lord.
Materialism is a problem in today's society, it's true. It's not only why many people work needlessly but it's why many people don't go into (or stay in) the ministry. And that's a shame. I have seen many young men have to drop out, or they are in positions they really don't want to be in, because of a materialistic wife. I have seen this so much, it's epidemic. My husband thanks me over and over again for staying with him in the lean years and doing whatever it took to stay in ministry, and to stay where we needed to be at the time. There are many times I thought we would not make it, but I never once thought of asking him to quit or leave. This is because I feel the passion, the heartbeat, the call...and I think even if I didn't -- shouldn't every wife care enough about God and her husband not to thwart the call on his life even if you don't feel one? It's beyond me how so many people do this and I have to be honest, it's hard -- way hard -- for me not to say something when I see it. I somehow manage to keep a lid on it.
Right again Deanna! "....for God who knows all hearts knows yours, and he rewards all according to his deeds.". Back at ya' Deanna! Has God not granted you the desires of your heart? Staying loyal to Larry's call and your own has brought you through those lean years. Now, God has given you a wonderful new home church, and beautiful new home! Materialism did not get the best of you as it has some ladies today. And he has rewarded your heart! Praise God!
But, your are correct in that it is an epidemic. But, the best way to correct this, Cassandra is right, is biblically. Not through bashing, or gossip. Many years ago, when we felt the call to homeschool, and I refused to do it, I got a call from our Pastor. I told him I wanted my kids out of the house so I could have the whole day to myself. To watch TV, go out, whatever. He told me very lovingly that I was very selfish. My husband was trying to be obedient to God's call, and it was up to me to follow, not thawrt his attempts at obedience. He was right. But again, he did this in love and with his Bible in hand.
I know it is painful for us in the ministry to see ladies tear into eachother, but, we can not always solve this problem on our own. These ladies are often in bondage to gossip and hard feelings towards others.(usually due to thier own unhappiness) God will eventually deal them.... I have seen this take place. We just have to, the best we can, counsel each lady to answer whatever God calls her to do, and encourage her as an individual child of God. Just make sure she knows what her biblical priorties ought to be, and encourage her and pray with her to make the proper choices. Love you all! lw
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
You know, re-visiting my remarks above, I would just like to say that while I really personally don't have any issue of judging women who stay home, homeschool, don't stay home, don't homeschool, Christian school, public school, WHATEVER... (makes no difference to me, and that's my soapbox that I'm on a lot -- it's really "nun-ya" as my dh likes to say -- "nunya' business") but...the one issue that it's VERY HARD for me not to judge is when wives force their husbands to leave the ministry. This one is the hardest for me to keep my mouth shut on. (I do keep it shut for the most part to the ladies or their husbands personally but I can't resist talking to dh and my close ministry friends about it. Just can't manage that one.)
You know, it drives me crazy when, due to materialism, or neediness, or high maintenance issues, wives drive their husbands out of the ministry. But they don't call it that. They spiritualize it...even lie about it...use every excuse in the book you've ever heard of, even say that they'll come back to ministry someday (it happens rarely) and most times, the husband takes the fall for it -- completely makes it seem like it's his idea. And he has to, to not look like a hen-pecked, spineless wussy... (Okay, okay, I'll try to be a little kinder and gentler here...oops, whadyya know, it's not working. So, I'll just stop the tangent...)
Anyhoo, does it drive you as crazy as it does me to see this happen? I find myself feeling so sorry for some men. And you wonder, do these women realize AT ALL that they will have to answer for this behavior?
I think this is my pet peeve of this decade.
Okay, I'm done. (for now)
So glad you all are still in ministry. I'M PROUD OF YOU. Remember, we're in this for life!!!!! Together!!!!!!!
It does make me crazy! I have a good friend in the ministry, and his wife recently gave him an utimatum, the ministry....or her. He has asked for help to run it so he can spend less time, but he will not give it up and she is very angry, even calling it...."his mistress". That really made me mad. She will not speak to us about it, or speak to us at all really....she wants him 27/7 and that's it! At 60 years old, you would think she would be more mature, though I do understand wanting time with him, I do not support her forcing him to choose between her and God!(her words, not mine!) That is just sinful , and I too have had a very hard time keeping quiet! Love, lw
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...... Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant, so I never said anything. And then, they came for ME, and there was no one left to speak up. Martin Neimoller, German Pastor, WW2
I understand, BTDT. Way too many wives use this excuse...and they do not realize, not only will they answer to God for it, but it just makes their Dh resent them, although it may be secretly...they do resent it. And it causes a breach in the intimacy of your marriage, although it may not be felt immediately...
